“Successful entrepreneur” offers free video on how to make money… obviously not a scam

This “press release” for “infinite cash secrets” is datelined from my hometown.  Google helpfully sent this to me in the form of a News Alert. Looks like since I left Somers has become a hotbed of multi-level marketing scams:
Shawver has achieved his online success by using the principles found in a program called The Infinite Income Plan.

“The Infinite Income Plan allows members of our team to consistently earn $5,000-10,000 dollar weeks by combining its state of the art back office with it’s vast array of cutting edge tools, with even more advanced and state of the art tools we provide to our team,” according to Shawver.

Shawver recognizes that just being handed a plan doesn’t mean that people will put that plan into action, and if they aren’t willing to put some time and effort into it, they won’t succeed.
 

How far does the economy have to tank before we are all Nigerians?
 
On a related note, I am totally in love with this site Skeptoid, a podcast (with transcripts) dedicated to debunking pseudoscientific junk like Reiki and homeopathy. While the site is generally a gold mine (see my favorites on how to argue with a creationist and the myth of peak oil), most relevant to the topic at hand is his take-down of pyramid schemes called “Bend Over and Own Your Own Business.” To wit:
 

Here’s a typical way this works. You see an ad in the paper or on the Internet promising financial freedom, owning your own business. For some fee, say $500, you can become a authorized sales agency for XYZ Company, which sells timeshare condominiums or some other product or service. In exchange for your $500, XYZ Company will provide you with qualified leads, and you are free to pursue those leads however you see fit. Call them on the phone, knock on their door, chase them down on the street and make dramatic flying dive tackles, do whatever you can do (at your own expense, of course; you are self-employed), and hopefully get some sales. You, of course, do not have any timeshare condominiums yourself, XYZ Company does; so you need to spend a portion of the money you earned from the sale to have XYZ Company provide the product to the customer. Everything works out swell for everyone. The customer got his timeshare; you earned a profit; and XYZ Company made a sale. So what’s the problem?

Well, your friend Bob was applying for a job at ABC Company at the same time you were selling your old record albums to raise the $500. Bob was given a nice office at ABC Company, was freely handed the same list of leads that XYZ Company made you pay for, and he proceeded to make phone calls on ABC Company’s phone bill until he made a sale. ABC Company paid him a handsome commission, deducted nothing from it, and Bob went home for the day, secure with his employee benefits package. Bob is not only $500 richer than you, he incurred no costs of his own, and ran no risk of being poor since most salespeople like Bob are paid base salaries.

But I understand why you don’t want to turn green with envy. After all, you have your freedom and are self-employed! Bob is not, Bob has to answer to his boss; and that’s a lifestyle you don’t want no matter how nice of a BMW Bob gets on a company lease. Your friend Red feels the way you do. Red is an independent sales rep. He sells products from various companies, and earns a nice commission on every sale. He comes and goes as he pleases, and answers to no man. But when you ask Red how much he had to pay each of his companies for the business opportunity, he looks at you like you’re from Neptune. Red explains “You don’t pay companies to be their sales rep, they pay you.”

And now you see how you’ve been taken advantage of. XYZ Company has sold you on becoming their sales agent, working at your own expense and at your own risk, and also managed to take $500 from you for no good reason. If you wanted to be an independent sales agent, fine; you could easily have gone and represented any of the same companies that Red sells for, and not paid them a dime.

33 thoughts on ““Successful entrepreneur” offers free video on how to make money… obviously not a scam”

  1. Have you seen Skepdic? http://www.skepdic.com/
    Really good site.

    How to argue with a creationist? Speak Japanese to them and tell them that it is biblical Hebrew. Or find out their favorite pastor and tell them that he agrees with an alternative etymology of a key term in Genesis and make them feel guilty as hell for not reading the language of the lord.

    I must say, however, that I had not hear that “second law of thermodynamics” one before and would have quite put out if a creationist had sprung it on me.

  2. No, the Skeptoid guy has it right, and his approach outlined in the essay “How to Be a Skeptic and Still Have Friends” is something I should learn from in my dealings with the eikaiwa community:

    “Spreading critical thinking by engaging in conversation with your acquaintances should be a way to build bridges, not to expose rifts. If you take one thing away from this podcast, it should be that point. Concentrate on where you agree. I’ve found that this has converted people who used to come to me as an adversary to challenge me with new claims into friends who seek out my opinion on stories that sound fishy to them. ”

    More at:
    http://skeptoid.com/episode.php?id=4116&comments=all

  3. That looks like a good podcast, I’ll have to add it to my list. The premise looks kind of like a calm version of Penn and Teller’s Bullshit.

  4. I also like http://www.randi.org. The Bad Astronomer is great as well – check out his complete trashing of the “moon hoax” crap. PJ Myers is great, and of course the great Richard Dawkins, though to be honest I found him a little too confrontational in “The Root of All Evil.” You don’t challenge creationists directly, you insinuate and hint, you ask, for example, why Jesus’s lineage through Joseph is of two different lengths depending on the gospel and also why it matters at all if Joseph was not in fact his father. The very worst creationist arguments are those that try and counter such things as radioactive decay by claiming the rate has slowed down in the past 6,000 years.

    “Evolution cannot create new information” is like saying that with only 26 letters we can have no new literature….

    The “No transitional fossils” is silly – almost every fossil is a transitional fossil. Homo erectus fossils are transitional between whatever came before them (no, I can’t be arsed looking it up) and Homo sapiens.

    “Evolution is controversial; scientists disagree on its validity.”
    What the fundies leave out is that these scientists are usually hydrodymacists or something completely unrelated to evolution.

    Oh, and talking of Kirk Cameron, you all should do yourself a favour and find the video where he and his sidekick are talking about how a banana is the perfect evidence for intelligent design. Or the video that says life can never arise in a jar of peanut butter in a supermarket.

    One other tip that isn’t mentioned on that page – a favourite tactic of creationists is to try and get you to explain the origins of life (or even the universe). This is NOT evolutionary theory – this is abiogenesis, and quite different.

    I consider myself very good at arguing with creationists, except that they are far and few in Japan. But the most important rule about arguing with creationists is to remember that it is almost impossible to rationally argue someone out of an irrational belief.

    M-Bone: “Speak Japanese to them and tell them that it is biblical Hebrew.”
    Hmmm – can’t help but think of the wackos that claim Japanese are the Lost Tribe of Israel….

  5. Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching.

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

    and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

    But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

    2nd Timothy 4:2-5

    The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12 (written over 2 thousand years ago, strangely relevant to today’s culture)

    The people who read this and remember this verse will be saved on that Erie Steven King like day when all of the church immediately vanishes from the face of the earth.

    Those who remember this, find a bible, ask Jesus to forgive them, and unless you are able to hide yourself from the new world order where you have to abide by the new rules of the 1 world order, die for your faith in Jesus are the only ones who will be saved.

    Seems to me like it would be a whole lot easier to just repent and believe now if you live in a country like America where being a christian doesn’t cost you your life…

    Strange thing about being a Christian or a Jew isn’t it? Really the only 2 faiths that have been persecuted from the their beginnings.

    Maybe because it forces people to make a choice? Either Jesus was who he said he was, or he was not. Either God is the creator of all things or he is not.

    And either the life you are living is wrong and you must repent and ask forgiveness before your God and acknowledge the fact that Jesus Christ is the savior for your sins.

    Which through truth exposes their deepest darkest feelings and brings to light the evil hidden in your heart. Which makes you extremely uncomfortable and you don’t want to hear it, you refuse to hear it, and instead turn to irrational and unsubstantiated claims that you can neither confirm nor site the source of your so called “facts” Which when further investigated is usually something you heard someone say one time…and are now taking it as scientific or theological fact.

    Without ever actually investigating it yourself, you just agree with it because it does not make you face your sin, its comfortable, its exactly what you want to hear. It’s not something that actually challenges you to rethink everything you have come to believe or change your ways…

    Exactly like the evil and self centered teachers of the law during the time of the life of Jesus. They refused to hear the truth, they were so proud and righteous in their own eyes that believing Jesus would have cost them far too much. Their reputation was more important to them than their souls.

    But I guess all of the other religions in the world that all have different and conflicting views, who are the very ones persecuting the Christians and Jews are the ones who are right…

    Are they all right then? Can all sorts of different beliefs have the same end result?

    It seems to me that the oldest ideas would be the most reliable. and that any new ideas or philosophies are just distortions of the truth or downright lies.

    Why also is it that there is such a profound hatred for those who believe in God?

    Why can a muslim, a morman, a Jehovah witness, a Buddhist, a satanist, an atheist, an existentialist, a prognostic, and on and on…..

    Why can they all live in peace with one another but insist on killing and persecuting Christians. Calling them everything they can think of except the loving caring giving people that they are. The first ones to respond to any crisis. The first ones people run to in time of need, but the last ones they want to hear from concerning their eternal destination or the condition of their hearts.

    Strange isn’t it?

    Why? None of them expose the truth hidden deep in the heart of all mankind, truth that people don’t want to hear. They would rather kill than be faced with the sin they know deep down they hold inside and try to bury and hide in anyway they can…

    How dare anyone bring it to light, they must be killed so that I can go on living in pleasure and debauchery…

    Repent and believe and you shall be saved my friends.

    And as for Adumu,

    just like the people who posted things in opposition to the christian faith. I recommend that you do your own independent research on the company or product before attacking something with claims you can neither substantiate nor back up.

    Strange that with a company that is a total scam my partners and I created over 1 million dollars in less than 2 years and are now over $80,000 dollars/ month

    If its a total scam, please do me a favor and point me in the direction of where I can find more of these scams my friend, as you do seem to be the resident expert on this subject.

    Do share more with me please.

    Regards

    PS we don’t buy worthless leads from lead companies, (Another reason it’s obvious you know nothing about the company but still choose to bash it) we generate our own and we teach our partners how to do the same.

    We are professionals, not newbies.

    I just wonder what you’re promoting by going around bashing companies you know nothing about. Nice marketing strategy by the way. I wonder what kind of people you will attract to you by marketing this way???

    Or maybe you’re not promoting anything, either way please do your research before bashing something you know nothing about.

  6. Note from Adamu:
    This is a comment from the original site, apparently bristling at my casual dismissal of his infinite cash secrets as a pyramid scheme. I will admit that the original comment was deleted, but NOT because it contradicted the site’s beliefs. We deleted it because it reeked of spam. In the interest of free discussion I will post his second comment but without the URL.

    But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather thatn lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power.

    And from such people turn away! For of this sort are those who creep into households and make captives of gullible women loaded down with sins, led away by various lusts, always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

    Now as Jannes and Jambres resisted Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, disapproved concerning the faith: but they will progress no further for their folly will be manifest to all, as theirs also was.

    But you have carefully followed my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsufferning, love, perseverance, persecutions, afflictions, which happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra-what persecutions I endured. And out of them all the Lord delivered me.

    Yes, and all who desire to live godly in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution.

    But evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.

    But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete for every good work.

    I charge you therefor before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

    Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season, Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

    and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

    But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

    2nd Timothy 3, 4

    The coming of the lawless one is according to the works of Satan, with all power, sighs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12

    Repent and believe and be saved my friends…

    And never judge something whether it be a company or product without first doing your own research.

    The review of that press release that Adam made is solely based on his own personal opinion and is not backed by even one source of credible information.

    If anyone considers themselves to be an intelligent person they would never take one persons personal opinion on something they would do their own independent research.

    Especially when the review has no factual basis whatsoever or sources to back up the claims being made.

    Which coming from someone who has been promoting the company for 2 years now can tell you that Adam knows not even 1 fact about the company in question or he never would have written the review in the way that he chose to write it.

    Including things that are completely unfounded and 100% opposite of the truth.

    But the choice is yours. Believe someones opinion based on no actual factual information but mere opinion.

    Or do the research on your own and see what kind of a hypothesis you can gather with your own free will and intelligence.

    Good luck

    PS

    Lets see if he will delete my post again because it contradicts his opinion and challenges his beliefs…

    If he does, wouldn’t that give you a clue that its his way or no way?

  7. Could you summarize the above in 75 words or less? We’re simple people here and I’m having trouble understanding.

  8. M-Bone – the summary:
    “I’m right and you are wrong because I have God on my side. Nya nya nya.”

  9. Hi, Adam thanks for not deleting my second post.

    I am not sure why you would label my first post spam as I made absolutely no mention of checking out any company, product or otherwise.

    1.) I simply quoted shorter versions of the passages of scripture that I quote in my last post and challenged folks to look at things from a different perspective. (it seemed to be the theme of the post)

    2.) I challenged you for your biased review of my press release and company which is full of nonfactual information and outright lies based solely on your opinion and nothing more.

    3.) Why in the world would i need to spam a forum with an alexa rank of only 684,188 to hope and pray that i might get a lead when i have most days 9 out of 10 spots for multiple different keywords on Google?

    4.) If it had not been required to enter an email so you can build your list to promote or email to or both, (nice work by the way) I never would have entered an email or url.

    5.) Besides, you have my url in the press release. Why would i ever need to list my url again?

    I simply found this forum while doing some seo research on myself and I couldn’t believe someone could write a review that was so completely unresearched and full of nothing more than errors and opinions.

    As for your claim of the company being a Pyramid scheme or a Nigerian style scam.

    Let me explain to you how a pyramid scheme works because by stating so you have yet again shown your complete ignorance with the company.

    In a pyramid scheme the people at the top are the ones who make the most money. They recruit a bunch of suckers with pie in the sky claims and promises of private jets and luxury yachts.

    This goes on and on down the line and the scheme begins to widen or spread out over more and more people until either;

    1.) Those at the top get smart and make up some crazy story of why the company had to shut down, tell everyone they’re sorry, and run of to the cayman islands somewhere.

    2.) The government gets wind of it and shuts them down.

    In either situation usually the people at the very top end up scott free with tons of money anyway.

    Now that it’s very clear to everyone how a pyramid scheme works, lets explain just a little bit about how the company in review (Global Resorts Network) works.

    You become an affiliate of a company that has been in business for 22+ years (Longest ongoing pyramid scheme I have ever heard of) which by the way has a highly desirable and tangible product, not some rehashed, over priced ebook or seminar (and offers something truly substantial whether you agree with the way the choose to do business or not.) Some simple investigation would reveal that fact to anyone…

    Once you are an affiliate you can do 1 of 2 things.

    1.) Refer someone the product who loves to travel and save money. (I would guess that would include just about anyone)

    2.) Refer the product to someone who is interested in a business opportunity that when taken seriously can be extremely lucrative because of the compensation plan they offer.

    Here’s why it’s not a pyramid scheme:

    In a pyramid those who get in first and are at the top are the ones who make all the money. They pop up overnight and are gone just as fast.

    With GRN, anytime you make a referral you earn exactly the same commission as the very first affiliate ($1,000). And on top of that, everytime your direct referrals get a referral, you make another $1,000. I don’t fully understand it nor do I care but this somehow goes on and on through unlimited depths.

    It’s not MLM, not pyramid, it’s called direct sales.

    The direct sales model has been around long before GRN came on the map and is nothing new. It’s a very effective business model and a very smart one when managed properly.

    So anyone please explain to me how this is a pyramid scheme?

    And I don’t care if someone signs up with me through this forum, I am more interested in you admitting you posted things that are unfounded and simply untrue. And to inform people that if they are interested in a business opportunity that they do their own research and find people who have put together reviews that have facts that can be substantiated from credible sources.

    And M-Bone I would be happy to sum things up for you. I wish Adam could or would recover my first post. It was a really good one that i put a lot of thought and effort into.

    Nevertheless,

    I will just give you shorter versions of the scripture i quoted above. Which is what i originally did in my first post. I would however highly recommend that you read all of that scripture above, study it word for word and really think about what it all means…

    “But know this, that in the last days perilous times will come: For men will be lovers of money, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, unloving, unforgiving, slanderers, without self-control, brutal, despisers of good, traitors, headstrong, haughty, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having a form of godliness but denying its power.”

    And from such people turn away!

    I charge you therefor before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:

    Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season, Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching

    For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

    and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

    But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.

    2nd Timothy 3, 4

    The coming of the lawless one is according to the works of Satan, with all power, sighs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12

    Read these shorter clips of the scriptures…

    Written over 2 thousand years ago, seems to strangely relevant to our culture of today doesn’t it?

    This is why people refuse to believe in the truth, they just find people who will tell them what they want to hear instead.

    And because of this God will send them “Strong Delusion” so that they might believe the lie…

    This is the only reason I can explain how people could ever believe such irrational and unsubstantiated claims…

    As someone mentioned regarding the 2nd law of thermodynamics earlier. While not one of the obvious blatant reasons that there must be a creator, as even nature screams there is a creator…

    For those who don’t know it already. The second law of thermodynamics simply put says that stars such as our very own sun which heats the earth and creates a perfect environment for life as we know it. All are basically dissipating or burning up at a constant rate every year which can be accurately measured.

    All stars are like this because all they are is basically a huge ball of gas comprised of such things like helium and hydrogen.

    Now if they are all basically getting smaller and smaller every year, then this means that every past year they were also larger.

    Now keep in mind that this is a “Law of thermodynamics” which all scientists agree upon.

    So when calculated, if you go back millions or billions of years like the evolutionists would claim. That puts the edge of the sun somewhere out around mars.

    Now this poses quite a problem for the evolutionists as is quite obvious. Because it would be pretty hard for the “perfect environment” to have every possibly existed for life to spontaneously pop up out of nowhere…

    And it never would have had the billions of so called years to evolve.

    And yet even though it’s a fundamental law of physics, evolutionists insist on throwing it out in order to justify their unsubstantiated ideas.

    Here’s another one,

    they say that it took billions and billions of years for the grand canyon to develope right?

    Well have you ever seen some news footage on a flood somewhere in the world? Its pretty crazy how much damage and destruction they can do in only a matter of days or even hours isn’t it?

    No imagine that there was a flood over the entire earth for 6 months…

    Where it rained for 40 days and 40 nights and all the water that under ground suddenly all at once was let loose on the earth.

    How much damage do you think a flood of that purportion would do if a local flood can destroy entire towns and carve out mountainsides? And only after a few days of heavy rain or snowfall…

    How about this one?

    There is another “Law” of biology that simply states that life always comes from life. But again evolutionists choose to through this one out the window to hold onto their irrational ideas.

    Going back to the scriptures I gave you:

    And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

    2nd Thessalonians 2:9-12

    Simply but my friend, Repent and believe. Ask Jesus in your heart to forgive you for your sins. Acknowledge that Jesus is your Lord and savior and tell him you will follow him and put your faith and trust in him.

    Find a good bible teaching church and begin to read a bible.

    And you too will have eternal life and everlasting joy and peace. Where someday there will be no more tears, no more pain, no more fears, only infinite peace joy and happiness forever and ever to the glory of God in heaven.

    If you want to get some more facts about creation from very well respected creation scientist I will include a url with the post…

    God Bless

    Ha, I love this guy…

    After I found the url i posted here i listened to 1 of the thousands of little 2 minute audio clips he has on his site backing up creation from a scientific stand point and this is what i heard.

    They recently discovered a crustacean somewhere that has long thought to be extinct for 80 million years

    After careful examination evolutionists where “SHOCKED” to discover that it hadn’t changed in 80 million years…

    Yet another reason there must be a creator and why the earth is only a few thousand years old, not billions…

    This one is on the first page if you visit this site. Its dated Jan 6th there.

    Anyone who is serious about discovering the truth about creation or evolution is doing there self a tremendous disservice by not visting his extremely intriguing and educational free website…

    God bless

  10. I’ve read the bible through 3 or 4 times but I still can’t see the connection between the scripture and your original post. Care to enlighten? For one thing, your company seems to be offering a yearly salary that is 10 times the median income for a US household. Is that compatible with Christ’s teachings? Does your company follow the Lord?

  11. Oops I guess you have to click on my username to view that website…

    I am not sure if Adam allows urls in the post so I wont leave one,

    God bless

    PS Jade Oc I guess you posted before I finished my last post but thanks for a perfect example of how when people are faced with the irrefutable truth they resort to irrational and childlike behavior. How else could you explain a post as immature and childlike as that?

  12. M-bone,

    Some of the people in the bible where the richest people of their time, probably relatively speaking the richest to ever live.

    God blesses those whom he chooses to bless.

    I am not God so I don’t have his perspective on things but;

    “just as there are vessels for honor in the household there are also vessels for dishonor”

    This can explain why some are blessed and some are cursed.

    If you have read the bible 3 or 4 times then you should understand the meaning of this.

    Unless of course you don’t have the help of the holy spirit to reveal things to you.

    Scripture is God breathed as you must know, and without the help of the holy spirit who is either calling you to God or interpreting things for you because you are already a christian. You will never be able to fully understand scripture.

    “just as there are vessels for honor in a household, there are also vessels for dishonor”

    As for the connection of that scripture to my first post. Maybe you never read it before it was deleted.

    If you did, i put it there to bring to light some things it says in the bible about our time in relation to the things you guys were posting here.

    And Adam I owe you an apology.

    I just realized that it wasn’t you who wrote that long review but that you copied it from another site.

    I do apologize.

    However it doesn’t change the fact that you called this thing a scam for no good reason knowing nothing about it, then tying it in with that story which if you try and relate it to this company is totally unrelated and garbage as far as i am concerned.

    Yes there are scams out there everyone knows that but before you label a company or people scammers, please do a little research.

    The owner of the company might see it and give you a hard time.

    🙂

    I noticed you allow urls in the posts so here is the link to that free website where you can hear scientific facts about creation vs evolution:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/

  13. “How else could you explain a post as immature and childlike as that?”

    Because you are a complete fruitloop.

  14. And yet another example of irrational and childlike behavior when:

    I simply quote scripture and give my point of view,

    and give scientific facts.

    Call me crazy for stating simple facts, it’s Ok I don’t mind. I would suggest however that you open your heart and receive the truth…

    18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

    21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.

    28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

    Romans 1:18-32

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/

  15. “Some of the people in the bible where the richest people of their time, probably relatively speaking the richest to ever live.”

    Yes, for example the Pharaoh of the book of Exodus, Ahasuerus the Persian king of the book of Esther, Pontius Pilate of the Christian New Testament. There are quite a few rich men in there.

  16. Ah, but you haven’t given scientific facts. There is no point in responding directly to fruitloops, but for the benefit of the educated and intelligent readers of this blog:

    “The second law of thermodynamics simply put says that stars such as our very own sun which heats the earth and creates a perfect environment for life as we know it. ”

    Aside from the bizarre English there, that is simply wrong. The Second Law of Thermodynamics deals with entropy, and certainly astrophysicists are in agreement that left to its own devices the universe will eventually run down. The law does not deal with solar fusion, not in the way EE seems to be claiming. EE is confusing some idea of the sun being like a burning log with some heinously egregious science from the ICR or similar, and spouting nonsense. For those of you who are interested, the reason the sun isn’t eating itself up like a burning log is due to the principle of hydrostatic equilibrium. If this principle did not hold, then all our air would fall down.

    “Where it rained for 40 days and 40 nights and all the water that under ground suddenly all at once was let loose on the earth.”

    Again, working past the idiosyncratic English, it is irrelevant: if it was all even then why was just the Grand Canyon carved? Also, the geomorphology of the GC is quite distinction from those of flash floods. Towns are of course not usually built of solid rock, so that argument won’t wash either.

    Here’s some scripture for you:
    ————
    “And The Lord said to me: “The prophets are prophesying lies in My Name; I did not send them, nor did I command them or speak to them. They are prophesying to you a lying vision, worthless divination, and the deceit of their own minds.” (Jeremiah 14:14 RSV)

    “Your prophets have seen for you false and deceptive visions; they have not exposed your iniquity to restore your fortunes, but have seen for you oracles false and misleading” (Lamentations 2:14 RSV)

    “And her prophets have daubed for them with whitewash, seeing false visions and divining lies for them, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord God,’ when The Lord has not spoken.” (Ezekiel 22:28 RSV)
    ——————-

  17. “Some of the people in the bible where the richest people of their time, probably relatively speaking the richest to ever live.”

    Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven. And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
    Matthew 19:23-24 (KJV)

  18. Which is why the rich man needs to donate all his wealth to the church….

    But wait…. God decides who gets to Heaven, right? Is this saying that God might find it *hard* or even impossible to do something? Oooo, blasphemy!

  19. Hey Jade Oc,

    good to see someone actually respond with scripture for once, but what you fail to realize is the fact that those false prophets mentioned in the old testament were not quoting scripture like i have done for you.

    They were not true prophets of God but of the devil. They were given false visions from the devil which either did not come to pass as prophesied or were in opposition to God’s word.

    So I am not sure where you were going with that but in any event…Nice try

    As for you’re argument over the rich man, it’s quite ridiculous to say that a God who’s whole being is love as God himself is love, would not want to bless those who love him in return.

    If even you with an evil heart still loving your children, what would you bless him with? A gift of treasure, something he could enjoy? Or would you give him a rock?

    So if even you as a sinful man knows how to bless your children, how much more will a loving and perfect God bless those and honor him?

    Those are scriptures that I paraphrased, I don’t feel like looking them up but feel free…

    You see the problem with taking just 1 scripture out of context and trying to apply it to your entire life and make is hold true in all cases is simply ignorant.

    You must understand the whole picture of what the bible is trying to convey, you must understand the true meaning of what the writers are saying.

    So how do you interpret the bible? Simple, with the bible. All scripture can be crossed referenced and it all ties together to tell the same story…But because it was written by the hand of man through the inspiration of God, like I mentioned earlier. It’s not simply another book, a lot of it requires the holy spirit to interpret it for you.

    Without the holy spirit of God revealing certain things to you, you will never fully understand some of the mysteries contained within.

    Some is literal translation but some are told in stories and thus are left up to interpretation such as the story of the camel and the eye of a needle.

    First of all you have to fully understand that story.

    The Hebrew and Greek words for eye of a needle are those used for an entry way into a city wall or castle wall. This entry way was usually too short for a camel to enter standing up so they had to make the camel get on its knees and walk on its Knees to enter the kingdom.

    Not impossible just difficult.

    So think about that for a minute. What does that look like a picture of to you?

    Well to me it’s obvious that its a picture of how a wealthy man must Kneel, or humble himself if he is to enter into the Kingdom of God.

    You see Jesus was not referring to those who where already righteous follows of God, he was painting a picture of what a non believer must do in order to enter the kingdom of God.

    Because he knew the hearts of most rich men who are without God are selfish and proud and their security is their money.

    As for the mention of those in the bible who were rich…

    I was referring to the righteous followers of God…Not those who were Pharaohs and gentile kings.

    Saying that God blessed those no believing leaders who were enslaving, oppressing, and stealing from millions of people would be like saying God is blessing the Russian or Italian Mafia, ludicrous…

    There are many pictures painted by words in the bible which you could never understand without looking at it in a broader sense.

    Such as probably the first one mentioned.

    When Adam and eve sinned in the garden of eden.

    God killed an animal and gave them skin for clothing, thus painting a picture that without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins. Thus painting a picture of his son Jesus yet to come.

    and this is to answer your question of does God find it hard or impossible to do something.

    Well of course its not impossible to do something for God but you have the wrong point of view or perspective.

    And no God does not choose who goes to heaven, we do, YOU do…Although because he knows everything from the beginning to end already, he knows who will ultimately choose him or reject him.

    God gave us free will to choose to love him or reject him. He didn’t want robots who would say “yes master” “right away master” out of a cold and unloving preprogrammed mind. What kind of love is that?

    Don’t you think it means a whole lot more coming out of the genuineness of someones heart and soul who actually chooses to love him of their own free will?

    Seems simple enough to me. I don’t want robot children, i want children who will love me out of the genuineness of their own simple loving hearts.

    So here is another way to approach your way of thinking.

    Its not impossible for God to do anything, but just as you are the master of your house, so also God is the master of the universe and creation and heaven.

    Just as you would never choose to have Charles Manson come and live with you and your kids, God chooses not to live among sinners for all eternity.

    Its his discretion, and that’s the best way I can put it. But the biggest problem that people have is that they simply don’t put their faith and trust in him.

    Instead they turn aside to lies and fables, and they ask questions like that?

    Well contemplate this for a minute. Just humor me.

    Lets just say for a minute that for the sake of argument among mature adults that there is a God…

    So understanding this, now ask yourself this question;

    How can a finite being understand the thoughts and ways of an Infinite God?

    How can the created question the creator? Does the pot say to the potter, “why have you made me this way”? or “why this or why that?

    No because its the created not the creator.

    I can’t possibly put words into God’s mouth for him but I would think it would be extremely difficult for a holy and perfect God to live with the evil and wretchedness in our hearts for all of eternity.

    That’s why adam and eve where kicked out of the garden in the first place. The didn’t obey God and God will not live with sin. He refuses.

    Even me, I don’t claim to be high and mighty and self righteous. I get on my knees everyday and thank God for sending his son Jesus to die in my place to be a covering for my sins.

    Because I know without him I would never be able to enter heaven. No matter how good you think you are, even if you told 1 lie or had one wrong thought you can never enter the kingdom of God. So praise God for sending his son to die for those who choose to believe in him.

    As for the rebuttal for the law of thermodynamics, I am not the expert scientist as best selling author and speaker Ken Hamm is.

    He is well known and respected among secular and christian scientists.

    Take up your arguments with him. I am simply an ambassador for Christ and can point you in the right direction.

    I have listed his website several times, even given videos of his you can watch.

    If you think you are so wise, go and watch and listen to his stuff. I challenge you to do it and come back at me with rebuttals for anything he is saying…

    In one of my last posts my username is a link to a video they put together on the worldwide flood. I suggest you watch it if you want to understand how the grand canyon was formed.

    Also keep in mind that they have found things that were petrified after only 50 years time. So why would it be difficult for the grand canyon to become petrified over hundreds or thousands of years?

    All of this is still however really worthless and most times will usually just end up in never ending debates back and forth.

    You see the problem is that people are looking at everything the wrong way. They take everything that man has congered up in the last decades and try to see how it all fits with the bible.

    Well I pose a challenge to you all. why don’t you reverse that way of thinking?

    I pose that, that way of thinking is in error and will only end in useless debates to no end or profit to the hearers.

    I say, and will wait for anyone to take me up on this challenge.

    Reverse your way of thinking for the sake of intelligent research and instead of trying to get all of mans ideas to fit with the bible, why don’t you take all of the bibles stories and facts and see if they can be substantiated or not.

    Do this through science, archeology, etc, etc.

    What do you have to loose? You will either be more educated and able to attack Christians which I am sure you would be happy to do. Or you might just find that the bible is true which will give you an everlasting eternal future.

    Seems like a challenge with a pretty good reward on either side doesn’t it?

    I would love to know if there are any takers…

    Just go to:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/

    start listening to audios there, watching videos there and try to refute what is there.

    Lets do a little science experiment…

    Here’s a little interesting fact for you.

    I wonder how you explain away the prophesies in the old testament?

    Unless you just totally disregard archeology and history and throw out anything that says at least some of the bibles are true…

    And when tested the bible has not yet even once been proven to be wrong. Only as more and more evidence is unearthed it is proven more and more correct.

    take the fact that there are 10’s of thousands of original transcripts of the original bible before it was canonized, that have been found that date back to as early as 200 years after the death of Jesus.

    Whereas there are at most a few hundred to maybe a few thousand copies (not too sure about the thousands i cant remember) of other ancient philosophers transcripts found that at best date back from around several hundred years to several thousand years after the life of the philosopher.

    Even secular archeologists will confirm that the old testament parchments found date back to thousands of years before the birth of Christ.

    And the dead sea scrolls confirm the stories in the old testament.

    So with those facts ponder this…

    What are the odds that Jesus being one man could have fulfilled even 8 of these prophesies?

    A mathematician calculated this.

    If you took a silver dollar and marked a big black x on one side.

    then you took the entire state of Texas and covered it in silver dollars 3 feet thick and threw that silver dollar with the x in there somewhere.

    then had a man blindfolded and had him walk the state of texas for months and months and months then asked him to stop.

    told him to reach down and pick up 1 silver dollar.

    the odds of it being the one with the x, is the same odds of one man fulfilling just 8 of the prophesies thousands of years after they were written.

    or to put into numbers and to hear it from an expert who will site his sources for his arguments just go here:

    http://www.direct.ca/trinity/part2.html

    Please let me know what you think about this site above and what it is claiming.

    I would love to hear some thoughts on this

  20. That camel business is all well and good, but just before that part, Jesus says –

    “If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.”

  21. M-bone,

    Well I already explained to you that you can’t take 1 single text out of context and try to apply it to every situation. You must look at the bible as a whole, and cross reference the things contained within. But if you insist on continuous debates such as this let me explain something to you…

    Did you read what happened to this rich young man after Jesus told this to him?

    What did he do? Did he sell all his goods and follow Jesus?

    No he went away very sad because he had great wealth.

    Jesus was not saying that it was impossible to enter the kingdom of heaven if you are rich. But instead was painting a picture here. (as he always did as was his custom if you know anything about his teaching style)

    Because Jesus knew the condition of this rich mans heart already, he told him this to illustrate a point.

    For a rich man to come from a background of wealth and decadence and follow God in a way that is honorable, it was near impossible.

    Because of their selfish, proud and boastful hearts already ingrained within them.

    though not impossible, because he used the example of the camel and the opening in the wall. Just very difficult.

    And who really cares, I am not interested in meaningless debates over interpretations…

    I am only interested in someone taking me up on my challenge I posed in my last post to anyone who considers themselves wise in their own eyes…

    Go back and read my challenge, and then to start it go to these websites:

    http://www.direct.ca/trinity/part2.html

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/

    I am waiting for someone who will take me up on the challenge and give me an honest review and factual rebuttal for the claims being made that can be backed up with proven scientific evidence from credible sources.

    Until then,

    Research is key.

    I await your answers, best of luck to you all

  22. You are quoting scripture for your own ends – do I need to remind you what the Bible says the Devil does with that?

    “thus painting a picture that without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins”

    Other blood, I note, not that of the sinner. So will you expect an innocent to take the rap when the Feds indicts you?

    The idea that Ken Ham (EE can’t spell Ham correctly either) is respected by secular scientists is a complete lie. Ken Ham, AiG, and ICR are considered complete jokes and are only taken seriously when they attempt to subvert the idea of separation of church and state and get state shools to teach religion as fact.

    The camel nonsense is madeup crap – the original Aramaic spoken at the time used the same word (gamla) for both, hence the confusion (an the Hebrew for rope and camel are also very similar, no doubt reflecting the idea of rope made from camel hair). Even if it is completely accurate, it is nothing more than metaphor since there is no evidence whatsoever for any small gates called ‘needles.’

    “So why would it be difficult for the grand canyon to become petrified over hundreds or thousands of years?”

    And once again you have demonstrated that your knowledge is merely limited to half-understood regurgitations of nonsense. In no sense whatsoever is the Grand Canyon “petrified.”

    I could start on Bibical prophesy with the most famous one, about Jesus being born of a virgin, but even though that has been debunked it is still spewed up by the fanatic.

    “i want children who will love me out of the genuineness of their own simple loving hearts”

    Because if they don’t you tell them you will tormet them for eternity. A great way to get people to love you. After all, isn’t Kim Il Jung beloved by his people as the “Dear Leader”? And all he can do is kill you.

    Believe me, I am quite educated, and very good at attacking Christians (I hope readers note that poor persecuted EE considers attacks on the absolute literality of the Bible an attack on Christians. I doubt the Pope would agree, but then evangelicals and their ilk consider the Pope to be little better than the anti-Christ). But they have to play the game too. Everything in AiG and similar sites HAS been debunked, countless times, but the fanatic merely close their ears and pretend not to hear. They respond to actual scientific fact with stupidity like “you have to interpret the Bible with the Bible,” which is like proving Middle-Earth exists by only using Lord of the Rings. But what annoys me more than anything is their lying.

  23. Incidentally, the scripture quotations were aimed at YEC fanatics and other loonies who distort and lie in the name of God.

    Oh, and one more thing:

    “why don’t you take all of the bibles stories and facts and see if they can be substantiated or not.”

    This is exactly what was behind the ideas of modern science when it first took off. People like Newton were devoutly religious – Newton wrote a lot more on religion than he did on science – and they wanted to explore and understand God’s creation. However the more they did so the more they realised that the Bible and the real universe were at odds, so much so that to modern YECs science is seen as fundamentally anti-religion as it keeps on disproving Biblical claims. Other christian groups, notably the Catholics, solved that issue by not insisting that the Bible is inerrant – Catholics, for example, accept evolution: they say that God created the human soul by special creation, not the human body.

  24. The original Greek tells not of a camel, but a rope … When it was translated into Latin, kamilos (rope) was confused with kamelos (camel).

    In fact, the original Greek says kamelos (camel), not kamilos (rope). The latter is found in a few late manuscripts/lectionaries, mostly 11th century or later, and in one 9th or 10th century manuscript. The oldest manuscripts are unanimous in reading kamelos, i.e., camel.

    Jeff Smelser
    http://www.netgreek.net
    http://www.centrevillechurchofchrist.org

    * I then replied back asking what these “oldest manuscripts” were and he sent the following reply.

    All of the following have kamelos (camel).

    Codices:
    Sinaiticus – 4th century
    Vaticanus – 4th century
    Ephraemi – 5th century
    Bezae Cantabrigiensis – 5th century
    Regius – 8th century
    Washington Freer – 4th/5th century – This one is local for me – It is in the Freer Gallery here in D.C.
    Dublinensis – 5th/6th century

    Add to that list numerous minuscules, the manuscripts comprising families 1 and 13, the great bulk of the so called “majority text” manuscripts (the byzantine mss), and early quotations from the passage from Origen and Chrysostom. Add to that the testimony of the earliest translations which were made as early as the 3rd and 4th century, and the evidence is overwelming. There is no basis for claiming the original text had “rope.”

    OTHER SOURCES
    A question has arisen as to whether “camel” should not be more correctly rendered “rope” in this instance. In fact, George M. Lamsa’s translation uses the word “rope” in the main text, and a footnote on Matthew 19:24 reads: “The Aramaic word gamla means rope and camel.” Also, the Greek words for rope (ka’ mi los) and camel (ka’ me los) are very similar, and it has been suggested that there was a confusion of the Greek words. It is noteworthy, though, that a Greek-English Lexicon by Liddell and Scott defines ka’ mi los as “rope,” but adds, “perhaps coined as an emendation of the phrase, ‘It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the Kingdom of God,'” thus indicating that ka’ me los, rather than ka’ mi los, appeared in the Greek text.

    In the oldest extant Greek manuscripts of the Gospel of Matthew, the Sinaitic Manuscript, The Vatican Manuscript No. 1209, and the Alexandrine Manuscipt, the word ka’ me los appears.
    *The indictations are that Matthew wrote his account of the life of Jesus first in Hebrew and then translated it into Greek. He knew, therefore exactly what Jesus said and meant, and hence he knew the proper Greek word and that word according to the oldest extant Greek manuscripts, was ka’ me los. There is good reason therefore, for believing “camel” to be the correct rendering. (From: Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 282, Published by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, New York, N.Y.)

    All three synoptics recount an episode during the Perean ministry of the Saviour where a rich young man (called a “ruler” in Luke) approaches Jesus and asks what he can do to have eternal life. Jesus tells him to keep the commandments, and in response to a request for clarification refers to the Ten Commandments. The young man replies that he has kept these from his youth, and then asks what yet he lacks. The reply is to sell all he has, give the proceeds to the poor, and follow Jesus. The young man then walks away sadly, because he had great possessions.

    Following this story is a section where Jesus utters the now famous proverb, which I will quote below as it is given in each gospel:

    “And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Mt. 19:24)

    “It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Mk. 10:25)

    “For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.” (Lk. 18:25)

    This saying does not appear in the Gospel of Thomas.

    These statements are virtually identical in English. There is a little variation in Greek; in particular, the needle in Matthew and Mark is a raphis, while in Luke it is a belone. This is not a significant difference, however; both refer to needles used for sewing.

    In my experience teaching in the Church, this verse is a “hot button,” and when it is read in class it will almost invariably elicit some sort of comment. The comment might be a generic defense of riches, for instance, to allow the fortunate bearer of such to build up the kingdom of God. More likely, one of two very specific comments will be offered.

    The first is something to the effect that there was in the city wall of Jerusalem a narrow gate known as “The Eye of the Needle.” It was very difficult for a camel to pass through this gate. I have heard variations on this explanation; according to one, the camel would have to be unburdened before it could pass through, while according to another, the camel could only pass through on its knees (!). People are very fond of this explanation, but there is one small problem with it: there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there was such a gate. As Hugh Nibley puts it in his own inimitable way, this gate idea was “invented by an obliging nineteenth-century minister for the comfort of his well-heeled congregation.” See CWHN 9:168. This is one of those notions Nibley calls a “para-scripture”: a tale that is widely but wrongly circulated among the Saints as scriptural.

    Well, if we cannot enlarge the size of the opening, the other logical way to rationalize the passage is to reduce the size of the object that must pass through it, and we see this in our next common comment on this passage. The Greek word for camel here is kamelos. This is based on Semitic gamal, and is recognizable as English “camel.” There is another Greek word, only one letter different, kamilos, which means “hawser, ship’s cable [IE a large rope],” although this word does not otherwise appear in the NT. In fact, as Greek pronunciation changed from the “common” dialect of the New Testament toward what would eventually become the modern demotic Greek, at some point in time the two words would have been pronounced the same way. The idea, therefore, is that the text originally read kamilos “rope,” which was corrupted over time to kamelos “camel.” Lamsa posited a similar argument based on the Aramaic gamla, which he said could mean either “camel” or “rope,” depending on context (apparently from ropes made of camel’s hair). This “rope” suggestion is adopted by John Widtsoe, Evidences and Reconciliations, 117.

    Unlike the narrow gate notion, the “rope” argument actually has some ancient evidence to support it, as a number of manuscripts do in fact read kamilos here. The earliest such evidence is found in the Armenian and Georgian versions (which are obviously translations), both of which date to the fifth century C.E. It also appears in the uncial S (949 C.E.) and a number of miniscule manuscripts of the Byzantine tradition, including 13, 59, 124,130, 437, 472 and 543, all dating considerably after the turn of the millennium. Three considerations, however, make it highly unlikely that kamilos was the intended text. First is the limited nature of the textual attestation for “rope,” which includes (1) the small number of manuscripts supporting that reading, (2) the lateness of those manuscripts, and (3) the narrowness (both geographically and in text type) of that evidence. Second is the principle commonly referred to as lectio difficilior, which is that in the absence of other deciding factors, the reading that is more difficult from the standpoint of language and subject matter is more likely to be the earlier reading. (I realize this is contrary to the common assumption among Latter-day Saints that scribes actually preferred, gremlin-like, to make the text more difficult as they did their work.) Third, the meager textual evidence that does exist is most likely to be accounted for by the influence of a number of Church Fathers, who had speculated about just such a possibility. See Origen, Catena, frgs. in Matt. 19.24 (Griechische christliche Schriftsteller 41.166); Cyril of Alexandria, Comm. in Matt. 19.24 (Patrilogia Graeca 72.429D); and Theophylact, Enarr. in Matt. 19 (PG 123.356D). For a bibliography of secondary literature, see Joseph Fitzmyer’s Anchor Bible commentary on Luke, ad loc.

    Well, now we are in a pickle. How are we to interpret this passage in a way that makes sense? I will suggest three possibilities here; you make the call which you prefer, or mix and match if you like.

    First is what I would call the “consecration” interpretation, which is favored by Nibley. That is that Jesus really meant it; you have to give up everything and follow him. I can tell you that this does not play well in wards such as mine, which are frequented by captains of industry, but God bless Hugh Nibley for staking out the high ground so effectively.

    The second is to recognize the camel saying as an example of hyperbole; that is, an intentional exaggeration for rhetorical effect. Dummelow at p. 689 quotes the following illustrations: Rabbi Sheshith to Rabbi Amram: “Perhaps thou art one of those of Pombeditha, who can make an elephant pass through a needle’s eye.” From the Greeks: “It is easier to hide five elephants under one’s arm,” and from the Romans: “More easily would a locust bring forth an elephant.” Reading the proverb as hyperbole requires us to trust that the preceding verse articulated the real meaning of the saying, as in Matt. 19:23: “a rich man shall hardly (duskolos “with difficulty,” but not impossibly) enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Of course, our linear western logic demands that the saying match the principle, but it does not. Rather, it describes an impossible process, not one that is difficult only. Thus all the gyrations to try to modify the meaning of the proverb. Given the tremendous amount of discussion and soul searching this verse has engendered over the centuries, if it were intentional hyperbole, in my estimation it was fabulously successful.

    Third is what we might call the “grace” interpretation. Recall that when they heard the saying, the disciples “were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?” This shows that they recognized it as a difficult saying, and is further evidence against the softening explanations described above. Jesus answers: “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.” That is, the camel saying really is supposed to describe an impossible process, because it has not yet factored God into that process. Once God is factored in, it becomes indeed possible for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven (but even then only with difficulty).

    However one chooses to understand the saying, it should not be cheapened by the easy rationalizations that have accrued around it over time. It is intentionally a hard saying, and to contemplate it requires hard thought, study and prayer.

    As I mentioned before, I think he was simply making a comment about keeping the tenth commandment. Thou shalt not covet.

    Clearly the man had been told directly to give up everything and follow. He didn’t. He coveted his own things. Therefore….how likely is he to enter the kingdom.

    Jade Oc

    You propose:

    “I could start on Bibical (since as an imperfect being you are stooping to attacking another imperfect being with inconsequential grammatical and spelling errors for the sake of portraying yourself as being more highly educated, nice spelling of biblical…) (I never claimed to be an English professor)prophesy with the most famous one, about Jesus being born of a virgin, but even though that has been debunked”

    Could you please explain to us all how this has as you say “been debunked?” and give us all the source of your claims.

    Even if it where debunked which would undermine the entire new testament and much of the old. It does not change the fact that there were 332 other Prophesies that some, but not all of course at this point, can be backed up by historical and archeological evidence.

    Which is also in fact irrelevant and beside the point when looking at the mathematical improbabilities in question with regard to this matter.

    Did you even read the content on the page at?: http://www.direct.ca/trinity/part2.html

    As for:

    “Other blood, I note, not that of the sinner. So will you expect an innocent to take the rap when the Feds indicts you?”

    No I would not expect that, but what you need to understand is that what Jesus did for you and I is a free gift of salvation.

    It was never something that we or our predecessors expected of God, he gave us this free gift out of love for his creation.

    It is not something that can ever be earned or purchased, its a free gift. I you need to do is accept it.

    Romans 5:18-19 (New International Version)

    18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

    But beside all of that it is really of no consequence for what do these worthless debates really accomplish?

    It’s the infallible word of God. This alone holds the power to save and bring eternal salvation.

    Romans 1:16 (New International Version)

    16I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile.

    Hebrews 4:12 (New International Version)

    12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    Acts 17:30-31 (New International Version)

    30In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to all men by raising him from the dead.”

    Matthew 24:37-39 (New International Version)

    37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

    2 Peter 3

    The Day of the Lord
    1Dear friends, this is now my second letter to you. I have written both of them as reminders to stimulate you to wholesome thinking. 2I want you to recall the words spoken in the past by the holy prophets and the command given by our Lord and Savior through your apostles.

    3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

    10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.[a]

    11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.[b]That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness.

    14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    17Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

    Assume the bible is true for 1 minute look around at yourself and most others in the world and ask yourself this question:

    How is it that peter 2,000 years ago knew that today in our culture there would be people like he mentioned? Amazing isn’t it?

    Awaiting rebuttals to my challenge that can be substantiated and credible sources…

  25. The problem with what you are saying is that the science is based on theory and irrational claims like this one you can listen to:

    http://www.answersingenesis.org/media/audio/answers-daily/volume-083/who-was-boxgrove-man

    And about the Catholics, that’s yet another problem with our society after the post modern society or our now post, post modern society is its existential beliefs and tolerance. With the now absent absolute truth that used to exist.

    Now its ok for you to believe whatever you want to believe and do what ever you like as long as it feels good to you with no regard to consequences or repercussions.

    Don’t you see the inerrant flaw in this way of thinking? With the absence of absolute truth…

    How long do you think a society will last with this type of thinking growing more and more prevalent in our culture?

    Why do you think we have school children blowing away other school children?

    We are only 1 generation away from loosing the knowledge of God if we don’t continue to teach the bible and it’s absolute truths to our children.

    And here is the end result of this way of thinking:

    Matthew 24:37-39 (New International Version)

    37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

  26. Jade Oc,

    You say and I quote, “Ken Ham, AiG, and ICR are considered complete jokes”

    Well don’t you find a bit of irony from something that relates to that statement even though it was written several thousand years ago…

    2nd peter 3

    3First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. 4They will say, “Where is this ‘coming’ he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.” 5But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

    I rest my case.

    Repent and believe brothers and be saved.

    John 3:16 (New International Version)

    16″For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[a] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

  27. “Well don’t you find a bit of irony from something that relates to that statement even though it was written several thousand years ago…”

    No, and for two reasons. One, because they are demonstrably wrong. In the same way I would be if I said the capital of the US was a tree. Two, because the majority of Christians also consider them jokes.

    YECs of course consider anyone who doesn’t think the way they do to be deluded at best, not a ‘true Christian’ at worst, so this will have as much impact as quoting the Bible to prove the Bible. Ken Ham is a greater threat to Christianity than Richard Dawkins, because he is such a joke.

    “I rest my case.”

    Come to think of it, why is EE even debating? Did not Jesus command the faithful to turn the other cheek when your enemy strikes you? Or does he think that applies merely to physical attacks?

    Anyway, since EE is reduced to nothing but quote-mining, and ends with the most hackneyed of the lot, I assume that anything intelligent that can be extracted from this exchange has dried up. And I don’t want to feed what is rapidly turning into a troll.

    Oh, one last quote that all Bible-thumpers should take note of:

    Matthew 6:5-6: “And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men.”

  28. I find it to come as no surprise that you have yet to come up with substantiated claims from credible sources to refute anything i have presented to you thus far.

    And by saying that Ken Ham is a threat to Christianity really shows me where I need to go next with this.

    I also have become weary of trying to present to you the truth in a gentle and peaceable manner.

    So I leave you with more inspired words from my God;

    2nd Timothy 2:22-26

    So(A) flee(B) youthful passions and pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace, along with(C) those who call on the Lord(D) from a pure heart. 23Have nothing to do with foolish, ignorant(E) controversies; you know that they breed quarrels. 24And(F) the Lord’s servant[a] must not be quarrelsome but(G) kind to everyone,(H) able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25correcting his opponents(I) with gentleness. God(J) may perhaps grant them repentance(K) leading to a knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from(L) the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.

    Titus 3:9

    9But(A) avoid foolish(B) controversies,(C) genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for(D) they are unprofitable and worthless. 10As for a person who stirs up division,(E) after warning him once and then twice,(F) have nothing more to do with him, 11knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

    I honestly do pray for you my friends, I have already and continue to include you in my prayers.

    If you could only see how the devil has blinded your eyes, it’s truly heartbreaking to me.

    I wish you the best, and may God bless you and draw you near to him so that you may become aware of the knowledge of the truth which is the salvation for all men though Jesus Christ our lord who reigns forever and ever. The first and the last, to him be all the glory forever and ever. Amen

    PS My challenge is still open to anyone who would actually do it and do the research for themselves on the sites I gave you….

    God bless

  29. btw Jade Oc,

    I was never praying in your presence so that I might be glorified in your presence.

    I was simply teaching, and correcting you. Trying to bring you to the knowledge of the truth which holds the power of salvation and eternal life….

    God bless

  30. “My challenge is still open to anyone who would actually do it and do the research for themselves”

    Archaeology shows that a lot of things in the Old Testament are not true. The American Journal of Ancient History is pretty good.

  31. The problem, M-Bone, is that the clinically deluded like EE simply refuse to see counter evidence. Having trashed everything he wrote, from solar evolution to the eye of the needle, he rejects it all of course. He has made it quite clear that the only “credible” source he pays attention to is the Bible or AiG, so there is no way in hell that he would accept the ravings of a lunatic journal like the AJAH, which relies on mere facts and peer review and strict quality control and all that nonsense. Seriously, with people like this, rather than tossing out citation after citation, you need to nail them down – get them to tell you their standards of proof, in specific terms. Then you give it to them. They, of course, do not do the same for you, as they cannot, and the reaction to being presented with proof is either to move the goalposts or ignore it totally, as EE has.

    Anyway, hopefully we have seen the last of this EE, cursed by God as he has been with delusions and sloppy writing. I enjoy a good debate with the more rational, but with YEC fundies it is like discussing astrophysics with a two-year-old having a tantrum. Hence my very first comment stands, and moreover has been demonstrated.

    And I am always intrigued by the statements that people like this are praying for me. I am sure they do it deliberately to be offensive and to make themselves seem holier-than-thou (literally). But if God answers all prayers, then obviously the answers to the ones about me have all been “no.” (Yes, I was actually told once in a debate where I brought up the issue of God answering all prayers [as the Bible claims frequently] I was told that yes, he answers, but sometimes the answer is No. Amazing.)

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