Comments on: Deconstructing the Japanese housing statistics

By: Roy Berman

Roy Berman — Wed, 05 Aug 2009 02:10:40 +0000

OK, I was kind of inaccurate there, and yes I was referring to what you thought I was.

“In which case it becomes a case of just how much does the ordinance cover – the main part alone, or the hanare or kura area as well?”
Well, I assume it’s every part that’s older than a certain date, but I really couldn’t tell you. I do recall that the kura of this house was NOT covered, but it could be because it was too heavily rebuilt in a more recent period.

By: Jade Oc

Jade Oc — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:49:04 +0000

“Since the bathroom in old houses (even early 20th century machiya) is usually technically outside the main structure”

I would dispute that, depending on what you mean by “main structure.” All the minka/machiya I have been in or seen plans for (including samurai houses) had toilets inside, and those that had bathrooms were also inside. Or are you refering, with the machiya thing, about the area of the house in front of the tsubo-niwa, under the main roof? In which case it becomes a case of just how much does the ordinance cover – the main part alone, or the hanare or kura area as well?

By the time municipal water was being installed, incidentally, kitchens and bathrooms migrated to the front of the house to be close to the pipes (in newly-built houses, such as the 文化住宅).

By: Roy Berman

Roy Berman — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 14:35:11 +0000

Since the bathroom in old houses (even early 20th century machiya) is usually technically outside the main structure it’s not much interference to upgrade. They certainly had a modern kitchen- I don’t actually remember if it was in the preserved or “free” part of the house, but they do grant dispensations for a certain amount of modern renovation. For example, the whole place is wired for electricity, etc. But all of these things have to be individually approved by a government office, which is pretty annoying.

By: Jade Oc

Jade Oc — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 09:36:38 +0000

Okay, zero estate taxes could be very tempting. I wasn’t thinking so much of a bedroom as a modern kitchen and bathroom.

By: Roy Berman

Roy Berman — Tue, 04 Aug 2009 08:26:27 +0000

“You know, I’m not sure I would want to live in an RCP: a bit too restrictive with what you can do with it.”
In exchange for the restrictions, however, you pay zero real estate taxes, and can in fact easily get government money for renovations. Also, one section of the house was constructed recently enough (maybe Meiji) to be exempt from most of the restrictions, so that was where they actually setup the regular bedroom and stuff. On the other hand, your home is also listed on the local map as a cultural property, and tourists tend to wander in if you’ve forgotten to lock the door, thinking it’s a museum. My friends there were also required to open it to the public one or two days a year and play tour-guide.

By: Jade Oc

Jade Oc — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 12:53:34 +0000

The oldest farmhouse I have been to is mid-1600s from memory. Now, obviously these houses and temples need care. But I doubt they were thrown together with the thought “ah the hell with quality – it’ll burn down in a few years anyway.” The oldest wooden building I have been too is, as I am sure it is for most commentators here, the Horyuuji (well, specific parts thereof: the Kondo and one of the pagodas). There are very few really old buke yashiki around, since there are bugger-all real samurai houses left. Even cities that are famed for them have only a few. Farmouses and merchant houses have lasted well, on the whole. Hell, my wife’s place dates from Meiji 7 or so in its oldest parts. Japan’s oldest house (箱木家住宅) dates back to the year 806, in basic structure at least. That’s eight-oh-six, not 1806. It’s clearly been remodelled throughtout, as the interior is not Muromachi style.

Now, if we were to look at the really poorest dwellings, it is a slightly different story. There are not that many left, for a number of reasons (not least being the desire for a better home) but the construction is clearly inferior. One big thing is that back in the day they actually dried timber properly before use: I’ve seen a lot of ‘minka-style’ places that have massive cracks in the beams from using improperly dried wood.

Incidentally, the oldest wooden house in Europe is the Nideröst house in Switzerland, which is now dismantled and in storage, at 800 years. Difficult to findout what the oldest house in the world is – keep finding references to a 15,000 year old place made of mammoth bones, which doesn’t really count as I doubt it was lived in for the last few millennia…. Talking of oldest, Wiki-J’s list of Oldest Things in the World has Japan as oldest monarchial state with a date of 660BC…..

You know, I’m not sure I would want to live in an RCP: a bit too restrictive with what you can do with it.

By: Roy Berman

Roy Berman — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 11:48:12 +0000

I had a friend who lived in an inherited, all wooden house from early Edo period, in the sticks of Nara. Registered cultural property and in mint condition.

By: M-Bone

M-Bone — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 11:03:45 +0000

“the predominant building material has been wood, which tends to get damaged by the high temperatures and humidity (molds, rot and insects). Add the risk of fire and other natural disasters”

The first thing that I thought when I read this was that temples, clearly built to last for centuries, were also made of wood and to last in these conditions so this speaks more to the materials available than the mentality behind the construction, I think.

I’ve heard that there are farm houses that have been around since “early Edo” – how old is the oldest that you have been to Jade? What about buke yashiki?

By: Jade Oc

Jade Oc — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 10:43:48 +0000

Yeah, the roof gets rethatched pretty regularly – in the villages they basically went in turns and by the time they finished it was time to start again. About every 20 to 40 years. Nowadays, with fewer people to help out (save in places like Gokayama where volunteers come from all over the country) and the prices – say five million to rethatch – very few places are thatched any more, even those that were traditionally thatched – they get covered by tin roofs. And there are lots of places in Japan about 250 years old: the major enemy in fact is “progress”. Perhaps not as common as 17th century places in Europe, but a well-built minka will last a couple of centuries. They need looking after of course – regular fires in the irori to kill bugs for example – but weren’t built to be torn down by the next person to live there.

By: M-Bone

M-Bone — Mon, 03 Aug 2009 09:47:04 +0000

We also have to keep in mind that 80 years in Edo Period time is 2-3 generations.

Wasn’t it the roof being rethatched every 60-80 years? There are farmhouses in Japan well over 250 years old, right?