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	<title>Comments on: Civics lessons from 1913</title>
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	<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/07/13/civics-lessons-from-1913/</link>
	<description>Photos, Stories and articles on East Asia</description>
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		<title>By: M-Bone</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/07/13/civics-lessons-from-1913/comment-page-1/#comment-396343</link>
		<dc:creator>M-Bone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 11:50:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=4613#comment-396343</guid>
		<description>”When you have people like Vikram Pandit and Barack Obama in the room during those meetings”

They wait until they use the washroom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221;When you have people like Vikram Pandit and Barack Obama in the room during those meetings&#8221;</p>
<p>They wait until they use the washroom.</p>
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		<title>By: Adamu</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/07/13/civics-lessons-from-1913/comment-page-1/#comment-396098</link>
		<dc:creator>Adamu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Jul 2009 04:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>When you have people like Vikram Pandit and Barack Obama in the room during those meetings it can be kind of hard to light up a cigar and talk about people needing to know their place in the world... but yeah the more things change the more they stay the same</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When you have people like Vikram Pandit and Barack Obama in the room during those meetings it can be kind of hard to light up a cigar and talk about people needing to know their place in the world&#8230; but yeah the more things change the more they stay the same</p>
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		<title>By: Curzon</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/07/13/civics-lessons-from-1913/comment-page-1/#comment-395798</link>
		<dc:creator>Curzon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:34:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=4613#comment-395798</guid>
		<description>Ahhh... the good ol&#039; days.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahhh&#8230; the good ol&#8217; days.</p>
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		<title>By: M-Bone</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/07/13/civics-lessons-from-1913/comment-page-1/#comment-394993</link>
		<dc:creator>M-Bone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 13:01:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=4613#comment-394993</guid>
		<description>&quot;In a way we should thank Japan for making the idea of freedom for Asia and the wider colonies an irreversible tide of history.&quot;

We end up talking a lot about the Rape of Nanking, but arguing that the Russo-Japanese War was one of the pivotal events in human history is the single biggest theme for the Japanese intellectual right. They have a point, but go too far in trying to depict ALL of Japan&#039;s modern wars as part of an unbroken chain of struggle against Western colonialism. Some people just stick with the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese Wars, however. Shiba Ryotaro became possibly Japan&#039;s most popular historical author (maybe Yoshikawa Eiji) by doing just that.

I think that if we had to identify a single high-point for &quot;Western&quot; power, it would probably be the intervention by France, Russia and Germany that forced Japan to return territory that it won in the Sino-Japanese war of 94-95 to China.... so that they could take it for themselves. So that plus the Boer War is probably the peak.

In any case, white people are a bit more subtle about empire these days - but you have to wonder if what is said behind closed doors at multi-nationals and in free trade debates echoes the above piece.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In a way we should thank Japan for making the idea of freedom for Asia and the wider colonies an irreversible tide of history.&#8221;</p>
<p>We end up talking a lot about the Rape of Nanking, but arguing that the Russo-Japanese War was one of the pivotal events in human history is the single biggest theme for the Japanese intellectual right. They have a point, but go too far in trying to depict <span class="caps">ALL</span> of Japan&#8217;s modern wars as part of an unbroken chain of struggle against Western colonialism. Some people just stick with the Sino-Japanese and Russo-Japanese Wars, however. Shiba Ryotaro became possibly Japan&#8217;s most popular historical author (maybe Yoshikawa Eiji) by doing just that.</p>
<p>I think that if we had to identify a single high-point for &#8220;Western&#8221; power, it would probably be the intervention by France, Russia and Germany that forced Japan to return territory that it won in the Sino-Japanese war of 94-95 to China&#8230;. so that they could take it for themselves. So that plus the Boer War is probably the peak.</p>
<p>In any case, white people are a bit more subtle about empire these days &#8211; but you have to wonder if what is said behind closed doors at multi-nationals and in free trade debates echoes the above piece.</p>
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		<title>By: Adamu</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/07/13/civics-lessons-from-1913/comment-page-1/#comment-394557</link>
		<dc:creator>Adamu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 03:22:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=4613#comment-394557</guid>
		<description>A lot has changed since then (for one, I don&#039;t think the US government is actively trying to &quot;civilize&quot; any group of people these days except maybe Iraqis), but we have not seen the last of contortionist justifications for American practices. 

I am sure many recent textbooks have similar references to the army&#039;s &quot;dont as dont tell&quot; policy or the debate over gay marriage. 

This attitude seems quaint and hard to understand, but it fits in perfectly with the times. 1913 was the high watermark of European domination of just about the entire earth (the time of Mary Poppins if anyone remembers the movie). None of the powers thought self-determination for Brown People was a serious consideration (they can barely build huts!). The explosion of colony-grabbing in the late 19th century necessitated justifications and civilization was a principal one. Without the white man&#039;s burden of civilizing and Christianizing the heathens some in the home country might find colonization objectionable. In a way we should thank Japan for making the idea of freedom for Asia and the wider colonies an irreversible tide of history. 

Even post-revolutionary France justified its invasion of neighboring countries as a way to bring the ideals of the revolution to all of Europe, though in practice the conquests resulted in puppet states. 

And in both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars a stated purpose was to liberate the people from tyrrany, from a fundamentalist regime on one hand and a ruthless dictator on the other. And of course one of the markers for victory in both invasions is seen to be the extent to which &quot;democracy&quot; flourishes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot has changed since then (for one, I don&#8217;t think the US government is actively trying to &#8220;civilize&#8221; any group of people these days except maybe Iraqis), but we have not seen the last of contortionist justifications for American practices.</p>
<p>I am sure many recent textbooks have similar references to the army&#8217;s &#8220;dont as dont tell&#8221; policy or the debate over gay marriage.</p>
<p>This attitude seems quaint and hard to understand, but it fits in perfectly with the times. 1913 was the high watermark of European domination of just about the entire earth (the time of Mary Poppins if anyone remembers the movie). None of the powers thought self-determination for Brown People was a serious consideration (they can barely build huts!). The explosion of colony-grabbing in the late 19th century necessitated justifications and civilization was a principal one. Without the white man&#8217;s burden of civilizing and Christianizing the heathens some in the home country might find colonization objectionable. In a way we should thank Japan for making the idea of freedom for Asia and the wider colonies an irreversible tide of history.</p>
<p>Even post-revolutionary France justified its invasion of neighboring countries as a way to bring the ideals of the revolution to all of Europe, though in practice the conquests resulted in puppet states.</p>
<p>And in both the Afghanistan and Iraq wars a stated purpose was to liberate the people from tyrrany, from a fundamentalist regime on one hand and a ruthless dictator on the other. And of course one of the markers for victory in both invasions is seen to be the extent to which &#8220;democracy&#8221; flourishes.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2009/07/13/civics-lessons-from-1913/comment-page-1/#comment-394518</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 02:26:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=4613#comment-394518</guid>
		<description>Yikes.

I was waiting for the qualifying line, &quot;Don&#039;t get me wrong, some of my best friends are women and negroes of Africa.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yikes.</p>
<p>I was waiting for the qualifying line, &#8220;Don&#8217;t get me wrong, some of my best friends are women and negroes of Africa.&#8221; </p>
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