<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The New Yushukan &#8211; a more refined elitist self-delusion</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/</link>
	<description>Photos, Stories and articles on East Asia</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:54:22 -0700</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=abc</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Adamu</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-281202</link>
		<dc:creator>Adamu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 05:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-281202</guid>
		<description>Well if you are going to go there, you&#039;ll put just about the entire content of this blog at risk!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well if you are going to go there, you&#8217;ll put just about the entire content of this blog at risk!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Aceface</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-281180</link>
		<dc:creator>Aceface</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 01:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-281180</guid>
		<description>It could only happen among the people who don&#039;t really have anything to lose in the debate.I guess.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It could only happen among the people who don&#8217;t really have anything to lose in the debate.I guess.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Roy Berman</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-280893</link>
		<dc:creator>Roy Berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 16:39:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-280893</guid>
		<description>Although in this case I certainly lean more towards M-bones&#039;s stance, you have no idea how happy it makes me to see people actually debating respectfully in blog discussions instead of just arguing. Please, Lirelous, M-bone, and anyone else reading, let&#039;s have as much of this as possible in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although in this case I certainly lean more towards M-bones&#8217;s stance, you have no idea how happy it makes me to see people actually debating respectfully in blog discussions instead of just arguing. Please, Lirelous, M-bone, and anyone else reading, let&#8217;s have as much of this as possible in the future.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: M-Bone</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-280867</link>
		<dc:creator>M-Bone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 08:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-280867</guid>
		<description>Bow returned. Looking forward to trading points again in the future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bow returned. Looking forward to trading points again in the future.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lirelou</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-280831</link>
		<dc:creator>lirelou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 03:46:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-280831</guid>
		<description>M-Bone, I believe we&#039;ll agree to disagree on that last point. Otherwise, your other points are well taken. A bow, monsieur.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M-Bone, I believe we&#8217;ll agree to disagree on that last point. Otherwise, your other points are well taken. A bow, monsieur.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: M-Bone</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-280365</link>
		<dc:creator>M-Bone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 00:01:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-280365</guid>
		<description>`But deaths caused through incompetence and massacres are quite different.`

Not　in everyone`s eyes. For example, the majority of US POWs who died in Japanese hands died from starvation or disease. This was also the cause of the deaths of HALF of the Japanese troops who died in WWII. This is due to incompetence (and a lack of regard for human life, including the lives of Japanese troops) but there are similarities with mass killings on a moral level that mean they should at least be talked about in the same way. The Bataan Death March has serious similarities with the Trail of Tears and both should be talked about in the same way (although not, obviously, exactly the same).

`As for reservations being concentration camps, that’s a bit of overstatement`

Its also something that I didn`t say. Many native Americans were put into concentration camps before reservations. For Americans, the term concentration camp conjures up images of the Nazi death camps but that is not the only way to use the term - it really refers to just what it says - a large area where a population are `concentrated` by force. For example, there is nothing wrong with calling the camps where Japanese Americans were placed `concentration camps` as it does not, by any means, imply elimination. The points that you make are valid but the historical concentratoin camp to reservation process is also.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>`But deaths caused through incompetence and massacres are quite different.`</p>
<p>Not　in everyone`s eyes. For example, the majority of <span class="caps">US PO</span>Ws who died in Japanese hands died from starvation or disease. This was also the cause of the deaths of <span class="caps">HALF</span> of the Japanese troops who died in <span class="caps">WWII</span>. This is due to incompetence (and a lack of regard for human life, including the lives of Japanese troops) but there are similarities with mass killings on a moral level that mean they should at least be talked about in the same way. The Bataan Death March has serious similarities with the Trail of Tears and both should be talked about in the same way (although not, obviously, exactly the same).</p>
<p>`As for reservations being concentration camps, that&#8217;s a bit of overstatement`</p>
<p>Its also something that I didn`t say. Many native Americans were put into concentration camps before reservations. For Americans, the term concentration camp conjures up images of the Nazi death camps but that is not the only way to use the term &#8211; it really refers to just what it says &#8211; a large area where a population are `concentrated` by force. For example, there is nothing wrong with calling the camps where Japanese Americans were placed `concentration camps` as it does not, by any means, imply elimination. The points that you make are valid but the historical concentratoin camp to reservation process is also.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lirelou</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-280282</link>
		<dc:creator>lirelou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 13:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-280282</guid>
		<description>M, I didn&#039;t count the &quot;trail of tears&quot; as a massacre. The only aboriginal Americans with a real beef are the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creeks, and Seminoles. They had moved their societies closer to the 18th Century American model, and when gold was discovered in North Georgia, Congress came up with the Indian Exclusion Act. Interestingly enough, Davy Crockett was the only congressman to vote against it. But deaths caused through incompetence and massacres are quite different. The former lacks the element of criminal intent. Massacres of Whites, by the way, were far more common than organized massacres of the tribes. But of course, they had accepted that risk by transiting what was essentially a war zone, and to the Aboriginal&#039;s credit, they didn&#039;t just massacre Whites. Other tribes and clans were also on their hit list.

As for reservations being concentration camps, that&#039;s a bit of overstatement. As I speak, the Seminole tribe is running an add on the telly promoting their new Las Vegas style slot machines at the Seminole Hard Rock Cafe in Tampa, Florida. (As an aside, the Seminole tribe has a nice web site explaining their history, and the origin of the term &quot;Seminole&quot;) From 1983 to 1986 I worked in the Mountain West (New Mexico up to Montana and Idaho), and my work put me in contact with numerous aboriginal Americans and their reservations, and a lot of those societies are alive and well. Yet the problems you note are widespread and serious, both on and off the &quot;res&quot;. But they are also widespread among their corresponding socio-economic slices of other American groups. 

&quot;The more efficient culture wins out&quot; is merely a statement of the obvious. My apologies for the term &quot;idiotic&quot;, by the way.  That bordered on ad hominem and was unjustified.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>M, I didn&#8217;t count the &#8220;trail of tears&#8221; as a massacre. The only aboriginal Americans with a real beef are the Cherokee, Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creeks, and Seminoles. They had moved their societies closer to the 18th Century American model, and when gold was discovered in North Georgia, Congress came up with the Indian Exclusion Act. Interestingly enough, Davy Crockett was the only congressman to vote against it. But deaths caused through incompetence and massacres are quite different. The former lacks the element of criminal intent. Massacres of Whites, by the way, were far more common than organized massacres of the tribes. But of course, they had accepted that risk by transiting what was essentially a war zone, and to the Aboriginal&#8217;s credit, they didn&#8217;t just massacre Whites. Other tribes and clans were also on their hit list.</p>
<p>As for reservations being concentration camps, that&#8217;s a bit of overstatement. As I speak, the Seminole tribe is running an add on the telly promoting their new Las Vegas style slot machines at the Seminole Hard Rock Cafe in Tampa, Florida. (As an aside, the Seminole tribe has a nice web site explaining their history, and the origin of the term &#8220;Seminole&#8221;) From 1983 to 1986 I worked in the Mountain West (New Mexico up to Montana and Idaho), and my work put me in contact with numerous aboriginal Americans and their reservations, and a lot of those societies are alive and well. Yet the problems you note are widespread and serious, both on and off the &#8220;res&#8221;. But they are also widespread among their corresponding socio-economic slices of other American groups.</p>
<p>&#8220;The more efficient culture wins out&#8221; is merely a statement of the obvious. My apologies for the term &#8220;idiotic&#8221;, by the way.  That bordered on ad hominem and was unjustified.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: M-Bone</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-280253</link>
		<dc:creator>M-Bone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 07:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-280253</guid>
		<description>`The more efficient culture always wins out.`

That is, of course, a perfect justification for violence and cultural destruction. 

`If you counted up all the real massacres that took place, (three) you’d still have less than a thousand.`

Wikipedia reports 20,000 deaths as a result of various forced relocations and if that were wrong, I`m sure some hot-headed American jingoist would have edited it by now. 

The societies of native Americans were destroyed, those left were put first into concentration camps and then into reservations and their descendents continue to suffer from huge rates of poverty, infant mortality, drug and alcohol abuse, etc.

It is to America`s credit that there have been efforts at restitution, cultural preservation, etc. While `genocide` may not be a suitable term, there is no need to whitewash the past either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>`The more efficient culture always wins out.`</p>
<p>That is, of course, a perfect justification for violence and cultural destruction.</p>
<p>`If you counted up all the real massacres that took place, (three) you&#8217;d still have less than a thousand.`</p>
<p>Wikipedia reports 20,000 deaths as a result of various forced relocations and if that were wrong, I`m sure some hot-headed American jingoist would have edited it by now.</p>
<p>The societies of native Americans were destroyed, those left were put first into concentration camps and then into reservations and their descendents continue to suffer from huge rates of poverty, infant mortality, drug and alcohol abuse, etc.</p>
<p>It is to America`s credit that there have been efforts at restitution, cultural preservation, etc. While `genocide` may not be a suitable term, there is no need to whitewash the past either.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: lirelou</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-280246</link>
		<dc:creator>lirelou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Jul 2008 03:43:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-280246</guid>
		<description>Good post and many thoughtful replies. I always love the idiotic argument that the Americans committed genocide against their aboriginals. Gleaned, no doubt, from a careful study of the accumulated episodes of &quot;Doctor Quinn, Medicine Woman&quot;. This argument ignores the true underlying conflict, that of an expansive western culture coming in contact with a neolithic culture. The more efficient culture always wins out. Otherwise, we&#039;d still find Malayo-polynesian villages in Central and Southern Japan, co-existing in happy harmony with modern Japanese. As for the &quot;genocide&quot;, the greatest deaths in the 1840s were from disease (notably among a people friendly to the Whites, the Mandan). In the 1860s, while the CIvil War raged, the aboriginals were again on the ascent, as noted in &quot;The Comanche Empire&quot; by Pekka Hämäläinen. But even by then, one of the two great pillars of their society, the Buffalo, was disappearing. (The other great pillar was the horse, which came with the Whites.) Perhaps the expanding Americans should have roped off the Great Plains, declared it a national park, and left its peoples as living museum exhibits, torturing and killing each other off while well-heeled European tourists watched.  Oh, yes, the genocide argument also ignores the fact that the single most common aboriginal American polity on the Great Plains during that period was the warrior band, a 19th Century version of Hells Angels mounted on horses rather than motorcycles. Pity the purveyors of this argument have not travelled the real American West, where they&#039;d find plenty of aboriginal Americans living today. But, why ruin a good argument? If you counted up all the real massacres that took place, (three) you&#039;d still have less than a thousand. Certainly a tragedy for those involved, but hardy on a scale with what the Japanese did in China, or the U.S. did in Japan with the fire bombing. At least in this latter case, they were saving American and Allied lives. The ugly necessities of a war which, however you view it politically, Japan unleashed upon itslef.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post and many thoughtful replies. I always love the idiotic argument that the Americans committed genocide against their aboriginals. Gleaned, no doubt, from a careful study of the accumulated episodes of &#8220;Doctor Quinn, Medicine Woman&#8221;. This argument ignores the true underlying conflict, that of an expansive western culture coming in contact with a neolithic culture. The more efficient culture always wins out. Otherwise, we&#8217;d still find Malayo-polynesian villages in Central and Southern Japan, co-existing in happy harmony with modern Japanese. As for the &#8220;genocide&#8221;, the greatest deaths in the 1840s were from disease (notably among a people friendly to the Whites, the Mandan). In the 1860s, while the CIvil War raged, the aboriginals were again on the ascent, as noted in &#8220;The Comanche Empire&#8221; by Pekka H&#228;m&#228;l&#228;inen. But even by then, one of the two great pillars of their society, the Buffalo, was disappearing. (The other great pillar was the horse, which came with the Whites.) Perhaps the expanding Americans should have roped off the Great Plains, declared it a national park, and left its peoples as living museum exhibits, torturing and killing each other off while well-heeled European tourists watched.  Oh, yes, the genocide argument also ignores the fact that the single most common aboriginal American polity on the Great Plains during that period was the warrior band, a 19th Century version of Hells Angels mounted on horses rather than motorcycles. Pity the purveyors of this argument have not travelled the real American West, where they&#8217;d find plenty of aboriginal Americans living today. But, why ruin a good argument? If you counted up all the real massacres that took place, (three) you&#8217;d still have less than a thousand. Certainly a tragedy for those involved, but hardy on a scale with what the Japanese did in China, or the U.S. did in Japan with the fire bombing. At least in this latter case, they were saving American and Allied lives. The ugly necessities of a war which, however you view it politically, Japan unleashed upon itslef.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mozu</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2008/05/10/the-new-yushukan-a-more-refined-elitist-self-delusion/comment-page-2/#comment-275987</link>
		<dc:creator>mozu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 13:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/?p=2197#comment-275987</guid>
		<description>Oups. was→had been, would become→would have become</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oups. was&#8594;had been, would become&#8594;would have become</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
