Comments on: Taiwanese place names and colonial Japan

By: Frog in a Well - The China History Group Blog

Frog in a Well - The China History Group Blog — Wed, 10 Oct 2007 21:33:22 +0000

[...] Berman at Mutant Frog Travelogue has an interesting discussion on Taiwanese place names with an unusually strong colonial connection. Is 高雄 Kaohsiung or Takao? Is the town of 森阪 [...]

By: Jade Oc

Jade Oc — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:35:07 +0000

I believe that with the growth of China as a regional power we will see an increase in pinyin orthography however, even with names like Chiang – after all, we changed Mao, probably single most famous name in Chinese history (certainly to western non-specialists). Although that would be made easier by the fact that the ‘Mao’ part stayed the same. But Peking went to Beijing, and I think we will see a complete change in the reasonably near future. I don’t really like the idea of “exceptions”, as all that really means is conservatism and an inability to adapt – like the Hirohito-Showa thing. It locks us into a set period POV.

By: Roy Berman

Roy Berman — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:56:02 +0000

Jade: For people to edit their own comments I’d have to allow everyone to create a guest account. It’s not difficult, but maybe more trouble than it’s worth.

I don’t think the use of Wade Giles in academia is either a point in its favor, or itself defensible. While I do think it’s acceptable to not use Hanyu Pinyin for Taiwanese names, because they do have an official spelling, which is often not Hanyu Pinyin (and for that matter, often not Wade Giles, or any internally consistent romanization system of any kind,) the use of Wade Giles in academia just smacks of sloppiness or misplaced nostalgia to me.

It may be reasonable to make exceptions for extremely well known names, such as Chiang Kai Shek, I think they should still have a note giving the actual pronunciation. In his case, a: the common spelling of his name is based on Cantonese, even though he ruled a country where he made Mandarin the sole official language, and b: it’s not even proper Cantonese Pinyin.

The following chart copied from his Wikipedia entry:

Known in English as: Chiang Kai-shek (蔣介石)
Pinyin: Jiǎng Jièshí
Wade-Giles: Chiang Chieh-shih
Cantonese: Jéung Gaaisek
Minnan: Chiúⁿ Kài-se̍k
Known in Taiwan as: 蔣中正
Hanyu Pinyin: Jiǎng Zhōngzhèng
Wade-Giles: Chiang Chung-cheng
Minnan: ChiúⁿTiong-chèng
Cantonese: Jéung Jūngjing

By: Jade Oc

Jade Oc — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:45:51 +0000

Ahem. “We’re so used to seeing, say, Chiang Kai-shek that the pinyin Jiang Jie shi.” looks odd.

Dang, I wish we could edit our comments….

By: Jade Oc

Jade Oc — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:44:45 +0000

“...still widely used in academia.” I think this is largely just Western (American?) inertia, in a similar way to the previous Emperor of Japan still being “Hirohito” yet his father and grandfather are Taisho and Meiji, rather than Yoshihito and Mutsuhito. We’re so used to seeing, say, Chiang Kai-shek that the pinyin Jiang Jie shi. However we do use as a matter of course such pinyin names as Mao Zedong rather than WG Mao Tse-tung, or Beijing over the alternatives (not that Peking is WG; the rarely-encountered Peiching is). I also suspect the relative impact of Taiwanese Chinese over Chinese Chinese in post-1949 Sinology (simply by being more accessible, and I include the Chinese Diaspora in that as well) has a large part to play. Whenever I need to use Chinese names in English-language work (not that often, true), I try to use pinyin, say Qing for Ch’ing dynasty, even though for example the KMT looks a bit ‘odd’ as Guomindang.

I do think pinyin is more accurate on the whole than WG in representing the sounds (eg Tang is indeed Tang in pinyin, whereas I understand that in WG a T without an apostrophe is more like D [hence T’ang Dynasty and Mao Tse-tung with a T rather than Mao Zedong with a D]), and the lack of (seemingly) random apostrophes certainly looks cleaner and simpler.

By: amida

amida — Thu, 27 Sep 2007 04:01:29 +0000

C’mon now, nothing wrong with good old Wade-Giles when it’s used properly. It may not be used in Chinese language classes but it is still widely used in academia, and I think neither “Kaohsiung” and “Gaoxiong” tells the layperson much about how to pronounce the name of that city. (And people who can pronounce Chinese properly should be able to figure it out either way.)
“Tongyong pinyin” on the other hand is a joke.

By: Mutantfrog Travelogue » Blog Archive » Is it Burma or Myanmar?

Mutantfrog Travelogue » Blog Archive » Is it Burma or Myanmar? — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:48:34 +0000

[...] « Taiwanese place names and colonial Japan [...]

By: Roy Berman

Roy Berman — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 03:40:12 +0000

You have a fair point, but I do think that personal names are an entirely different matter from more official uses. I mean, in the US we’re used to people spelling their name any silly way they want, but you don’t have the same freedom to spell, say, “Connecticut” however you want. But as for Pinyin, Taiwan doesn’t even teach it to locals, which is why I find the entire politicization of it irritating and counterproductive. Unlike in China, where Hanyu Pinyin is used in schools and dictionaries as the official pronunciation key, the Romanization in Taiwan is theoretically there for the sole benefit of foreigners, and not having using the world standard is just dumb.

Of course, Kaohsiung is currently the official name of the city in English, which while it may be the correct way to write it using one of the various archaic forms of Pinyin, isn’t actually going to help anyone today pronounce the name correctly-which is what I meant by “correct pinyin.”

An equivalent would be something like the use of the continued use of the archaic and retarded English Imperial system of measurements over here in the USA. You know what? The rest of the world has a standard, which is not just different but qualitatively better, and I think it’s past high time that we got on board with that. As the Atom and his Package song goes:

The English system of measurement must relate to history. We can use units of 10 and convert with ease like all the other countries.

I put the terrible and inconsistent pinyin used in Taiwan in the same category, and likewise hope they get on board with the qualitatively superior world standard.

By: Jon

Jon — Wed, 26 Sep 2007 02:22:33 +0000

I still don’t think correct was a good choice of words, it’s a very political statement. If someone spelled their name Hsin-yi and you told them “hey, the correct way to spell your name is Xin-yi” i don’t think it would go over very well. I don’t even have any Taiwan-related political orientation, I just think that since, as you said, Taiwan doesn’t have a commonly taught and used pinyin, there really isn’t a “correct” one.

By: Aceface

Aceface — Tue, 25 Sep 2007 07:44:57 +0000

I think that’s true.and there is some reference on that “Santiago”issue in this　interesting speech by a Taiwanese film director(and script writer of some of Hous Shao Sheng’s movie)on Taiwanese identity and foreign names in geography.

http://rinnkennryou.blog24.fc2.com/blog-entry-1229.html