Comments on: Adamu Reports: Alex Kerr Speech at Japan Foundation, Bangkok November 20, 2006

By: M-Bone

M-Bone — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 07:35:31 +0000

Oops. There hasn’t been a white hope in ages (only Russians who don’t get discussed in that way) so it slipped my mind.

By: Mutantfrog

Mutantfrog — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 06:04:18 +0000

“You are 100% right, I have seen “hope” used for boxers and other athletes (slipped my mind). I’m not sure if it is a good way to replace “kibo”, however. In English, “prospect” would be used for a boxer (never heard “hope”) so a different pattern of use/signification has developed in Japanese.”

Does the phrase “Great White Hope” ring a bell?

By: M-Bone

M-Bone — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 05:42:58 +0000

I also did a survey (of one person, boo). 100% said that Hope is no good…. I guess it depends on who you talk with. I also think that this is a slippery slope as these are obviously not English words being used in Japanese but “new” Japanese words that often have common uses very different from the standard English use. Just think of Ninja in English—I’ve seen it used as a verb (“I ninjaed that mofo”).

You are 100% right, I have seen “hope” used for boxers and other athletes (slipped my mind). I’m not sure if it is a good way to replace “kibo”, however. In English, “prospect” would be used for a boxer (never heard “hope”) so a different pattern of use/signification has developed in Japanese.

Bottom line is—probably best to use the Japanese word unless you know the English that you want to use has the same meaning when used as a Japanese word.

Y-Shirt is good, Hard Gay is better…. Is “nighter” for a night baseball game a Japanese word? I think that it is. Seems like that one should make its way into English as well.

By: Tore

Tore — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 04:26:42 +0000

I have to admit that I had initial reservations for ホープ, but an extensive survey of native speakers of Japanese (sample size of four) showed that a whopping 100% had no problem with the word. It is seemingly used in sports, i.e. 期待のホープ. I didn’t spot it in the parts I have listened to this far, so it might be that Kerr is unsing it in a non-standard way. ランチタイム on the other hand was regarded as a word mostly used in written language, presumably signs, in my survey. This could be due to gender bias (75% males), since males are known to predominantly use 昼飯 (data not shown).

As I am a non-native and non-frequent English speaker, my biggest problem with 和製英語 is that they tend to contaminate my English. I would not have had any qualms about using ‘skinship’ in a conversation… And even having had it pointed out for me, chances are that I will use it anyway. One word I do recognise as non-English and quite like is Yシャツ, it is a nice development from T-shirt with a very japanese etymology.

By: Adamu

Adamu — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 01:44:26 +0000

No, we don’t say hard gay. Unless it’s some sort of gay man with an erection or something.

By: M-Bone

M-Bone — Thu, 07 Dec 2006 01:36:25 +0000

As a foreign speaker of Japanese, it pays to use words that actually get used in conversational Japanese. “Lunchtime” is good in my opinion. “Hope” seems pretty dodgy. I did a quick web search and it does not seem like people are using it that much outside of company and product names.

Anyway, do you have any favorite wasei eigo? I like “Skinship”. I take it that it is playful “friendship” based on touch (like with a baby or a dog or something). Also, do we actually say “Hard Gay” in English? I really have no idea at this point….

By: Tore

Tore — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 23:30:22 +0000

Then you agree that his choise of words are just a matter of style, rather than language proficiency? I don’t think a group of Bangkok expats will have any problems with the Japanese he is using in this talk. A lot of foreigners (my self included) seem reluctant to acknowledge the immense amount of anglicisms used in modern spoken Japanese. This is the reality though, and a lot of native people do use it speaking to the elderly who can’t by any chance understand the meaning.

Defining fluency is always a tricky subject, but I don’t see the point in saying that Kerr is a “fluent foreigner” but not “actually fluent” whatever that means. He does have the accent, intonation and overabundance of ね (why do these always show up in foreigners?) that identifies him as a non-native, but using this to discredit his opinions smells like bad polemics to me.

By: M-Bone

M-Bone — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 18:48:50 +0000

Tore – When speaking Japanese you have to think about your audience. I’d use ranchitaimu, etc. when talking to some young people who are already studying English but didn’t someone mention that Kerr’s audience was mostly a bunch of elderly? For that type of audience, excessive katakana tends to be a hard sell. Kerr’s Japanese is very good but it certainly has a “my Japanese” kind of feel. Surely he knows Japanese alternatives for lunch and hope but is just too lazy to use them….

By: Tore

Tore — Wed, 06 Dec 2006 13:45:50 +0000

I don’t have anything valuable to add, just some nitpicking on Curzon. As far as I know, both ランチタイム and ホープ are used in everyday Japanese. Sometime I think it is hard to find 片仮名英語 that is NOT used in at least some circles.

By: Jade Oc

Jade Oc — Fri, 24 Nov 2006 13:40:28 +0000

Interesting and perhaps telling comment at the end of the article Kerr posts at
http://www.alex-kerr.com/html/in_touch__aug_06.html
“I don’t think we should fool ourselves that we’re changing Japan.” (good…) “But it is important that they asked us. That actually shows that this is a serious project.” Ah, what sublime confidence in your own importance….

And no wonder Kerr likes old Japanese houses – he’s obviously short enough not to crack his skull on the lintels….