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	<title>Comments on: Romanization in Taiwan</title>
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		<title>By: Mutantfrog</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-29013</link>
		<dc:creator>Mutantfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 02:57:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-29013</guid>
		<description>Yes, I realize that the pinyin division is based on political leanings, but that doesn&#039;t make it any less stupid. Don&#039;t forget that foreigners are the only people who even know pinyin - I doubt one Taiwanese out of a hundred does. Do you think that politicizing an issue that is basically invisible and incomprehensible the voters is really worth it?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, I realize that the pinyin division is based on political leanings, but that doesn&#8217;t make it any less stupid. Don&#8217;t forget that foreigners are the only people who even know pinyin &#8211; I doubt one Taiwanese out of a hundred does. Do you think that politicizing an issue that is basically invisible and incomprehensible the voters is really worth it?</p>
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		<title>By: OneTopJob6</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-29009</link>
		<dc:creator>OneTopJob6</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Dec 2005 01:47:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-29009</guid>
		<description>My G-d are foreigners such asses when it comes to our issues. The fact of the matter is, the disparate (now actually dichotomous) romanization standards are but a reflection of the Blue-Green divide in our political arena. Think red-state/blue-state, but a lot more serious. (Well, romanization is arguably NOT one of those serious issues). The fact is, as the South becomes more Green and the North becomes more blue, you&#039;re going to see romanizations based on their local population&#039;s stances on China. To adopt a singular standard would not only have bad implications for the in-country divide, but also cross-strait relations.

P.S. &quot;Tamsui&quot; comes from the Dutch rendering of &quot;Tam-tzui&quot;, as they had no way to render &quot;tz&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My G-d are foreigners such asses when it comes to our issues. The fact of the matter is, the disparate (now actually dichotomous) romanization standards are but a reflection of the Blue-Green divide in our political arena. Think red-state/blue-state, but a lot more serious. (Well, romanization is arguably <span class="caps">NOT</span> one of those serious issues). The fact is, as the South becomes more Green and the North becomes more blue, you&#8217;re going to see romanizations based on their local population&#8217;s stances on China. To adopt a singular standard would not only have bad implications for the in-country divide, but also cross-strait relations.</p>
<p>P.S. &#8220;Tamsui&#8221; comes from the Dutch rendering of &#8220;Tam-tzui&#8221;, as they had no way to render &#8220;tz&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mutant Frog Travelogue &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A dream deferred</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-28313</link>
		<dc:creator>Mutant Frog Travelogue &#187; Blog Archive &#187; A dream deferred</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Dec 2005 16:10:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-28313</guid>
		<description>[...] Here&#8217;s my idea of a perfect compromise: China brings back simplified characters, and Taiwan adopts the mainland&#8217;s Hanyu pinyin system for romanization, and bans all of the various gibberish versions used throughout the ROC. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Here&#8217;s my idea of a perfect compromise: China brings back simplified characters, and Taiwan adopts the mainland&#8217;s Hanyu pinyin system for romanization, and bans all of the various gibberish versions used throughout the <span class="caps">ROC</span>. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Mark S.</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-20222</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Sep 2005 15:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-20222</guid>
		<description>As the author of the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.romanization.com/tongyong/qanda.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Web page that got this discussion started&lt;/a&gt;, perhaps I should explain a little. That page is about five years old and thus considerably predates Taipei&#039;s change from &lt;a href=&quot;http://pinyin.info/romanization/wadegiles/bastardized.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;bastardized Wade-Giles&lt;/a&gt; to Hanyu Pinyin. So it&#039;s out of date, and I really should get around to doing something about it. (My thinking on the issue has probably changed some as well, so I&#039;m not looking forward to reviewing that particular blast from my past.) Most of my Web-related energies have since been focused on a different but related site: &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.pinyin.info/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Pinyin.info&lt;/a&gt;. 

I have a post on my new site related to the issue of &lt;a href=&quot;http://pinyin.info/news/index.php?p=31&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Taipei street names&lt;/a&gt;. It may be of some interest to your readers, as may also be this &lt;a href=&quot;http://pinyin.info/romanization/compare/hanyu.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;large chart comparing various romanization systems&lt;/a&gt;. (It is more comprehensive and also, I believe, more accurate than that of the GIO.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As the author of the <a href="http://www.romanization.com/tongyong/qanda.html" rel="nofollow">Web page that got this discussion started</a>, perhaps I should explain a little. That page is about five years old and thus considerably predates Taipei&#8217;s change from <a href="http://pinyin.info/romanization/wadegiles/bastardized.html" rel="nofollow">bastardized Wade-Giles</a> to Hanyu Pinyin. So it&#8217;s out of date, and I really should get around to doing something about it. (My thinking on the issue has probably changed some as well, so I&#8217;m not looking forward to reviewing that particular blast from my past.) Most of my Web-related energies have since been focused on a different but related site: <a href="http://www.pinyin.info/" rel="nofollow">Pinyin.info</a>.</p>
<p>I have a post on my new site related to the issue of <a href="http://pinyin.info/news/index.php?p=31" rel="nofollow">Taipei street names</a>. It may be of some interest to your readers, as may also be this <a href="http://pinyin.info/romanization/compare/hanyu.html" rel="nofollow">large chart comparing various romanization systems</a>. (It is more comprehensive and also, I believe, more accurate than that of the <span class="caps">GIO</span>.)</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-19714</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2005 18:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-19714</guid>
		<description>John, I&#039;ve got to disagree with you on a few points.  First off you said that standard pinyin&#039;s “x,” “q,” “c,” and “z” don&#039;t &quot;match usage in English or any Romance language.  Not true.  Many Portugese words that use &quot;x&quot; are pronounced very similarly to the sound represented by the same letter in Pinyin (an alveolo-palatal fricative).  Furthermore, several Spanish words also follow this spelling.  One example woule be the second largest city in Guatemala, Xela.  Qs can also be found in Romance langauges.  The Chinese sounds represented by &quot;c&quot; and &quot;z&quot; DON&#039;T EXIST in any Romance langauges.  And not they are NOT the same as the English &quot;ts&quot; and &quot;tz&quot;.

Also, Mutant Frog, it simply isn&#039;t true that zhuyin is less ambiguous than pinyin.  Both are ambiguous at the single character level.  For example, in pinyin &quot;i&quot; changes depending on whether it follows &quot;j,x,q&quot; or &quot;zh,sh,ch&quot;.  In zhuyin the word 重 is spelled ㄓㄨㄥ.  However, if each zhuyin character were read separately and then put together it would make the sound &quot;zh+u+eng&quot; =&gt; &quot;zhueng&quot; (sounds roughly like an English like jwung).

However, both pinyin and zhuyin are 100% accurate at the syllable level, and Chinese characters can be converted to either with no ambiguity about what sound should be made.  Pinyin and zhuyin can also be converted back and forth between each other completely accurately with no loss.  Of course what isn&#039;t possible is to take pinyin or zhuyin like bo2 ㄅㄛˊ and make a 1-1 mapping into a Chinese character.  柏,勃,博,薄, and  駁 all have that sound.

I totally agree with John about the tones.  It&#039;s great progress that at least Taibei is finally using standard pinyin on their signs, but with the tones it would be a lot nicer for the businessmen and tourists who just study a few weeks of Chinese before they come.  It&#039;s not that hard to learn pinyin well enough to be understood when reading it plus a few dozen characters.  But, learning how to just read the characters for EVERYTHING is thousands of hours of work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I&#8217;ve got to disagree with you on a few points.  First off you said that standard pinyin&#8217;s &#8220;x,&#8221; &#8220;q,&#8221; &#8220;c,&#8221; and &#8220;z&#8221; don&#8217;t &#8220;match usage in English or any Romance language.  Not true.  Many Portugese words that use &#8220;x&#8221; are pronounced very similarly to the sound represented by the same letter in Pinyin (an alveolo-palatal fricative).  Furthermore, several Spanish words also follow this spelling.  One example woule be the second largest city in Guatemala, Xela.  Qs can also be found in Romance langauges.  The Chinese sounds represented by &#8220;c&#8221; and &#8220;z&#8221; <span class="caps">DON</span>&#8217;T <span class="caps">EXIST</span> in any Romance langauges.  And not they are <span class="caps">NOT</span> the same as the English &#8220;ts&#8221; and &#8220;tz&#8221;.</p>
<p>Also, Mutant Frog, it simply isn&#8217;t true that zhuyin is less ambiguous than pinyin.  Both are ambiguous at the single character level.  For example, in pinyin &#8220;i&#8221; changes depending on whether it follows &#8220;j,x,q&#8221; or &#8220;zh,sh,ch&#8221;.  In zhuyin the word 重 is spelled ㄓㄨㄥ.  However, if each zhuyin character were read separately and then put together it would make the sound &#8220;zh+u+eng&#8221; => &#8220;zhueng&#8221; (sounds roughly like an English like jwung).</p>
<p>However, both pinyin and zhuyin are 100% accurate at the syllable level, and Chinese characters can be converted to either with no ambiguity about what sound should be made.  Pinyin and zhuyin can also be converted back and forth between each other completely accurately with no loss.  Of course what isn&#8217;t possible is to take pinyin or zhuyin like bo2 ㄅㄛˊ and make a 1-1 mapping into a Chinese character.  柏,勃,博,薄, and  駁 all have that sound.</p>
<p>I totally agree with John about the tones.  It&#8217;s great progress that at least Taibei is finally using standard pinyin on their signs, but with the tones it would be a lot nicer for the businessmen and tourists who just study a few weeks of Chinese before they come.  It&#8217;s not that hard to learn pinyin well enough to be understood when reading it plus a few dozen characters.  But, learning how to just read the characters for <span class="caps">EVERYTHING</span> is thousands of hours of work.</p>
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		<title>By: Mutant Frog Travelogue  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; Romanization system comparison</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-16780</link>
		<dc:creator>Mutant Frog Travelogue  &#187; Blog Archive   &#187; Romanization system comparison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Aug 2005 02:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-16780</guid>
		<description>[...] mparing various Romanization schemes, which may be useful to those who were confused by my previous post on Romanization in Taiwan.  	The left-hand column, labeled &#8216;MPS, [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] mparing various Romanization schemes, which may be useful to those who were confused by my previous post on Romanization in Taiwan.  The left-hand column, labeled &#8216;MPS, [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Thacker</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-16733</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:41:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-16733</guid>
		<description>Totally agree with you on the annoyance of the multiple romanization schemes.  It&#039;s pretty easy to handle any Japanese romanization scheme, and there are only a handful of places where you&#039;ll make significant errors based on faulty or incomplete romanization.  The situation in Taiwan is so much worse.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree with you on the annoyance of the multiple romanization schemes.  It&#8217;s pretty easy to handle any Japanese romanization scheme, and there are only a handful of places where you&#8217;ll make significant errors based on faulty or incomplete romanization.  The situation in Taiwan is so much worse.</p>
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		<title>By: John Thacker</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-16732</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Aug 2005 00:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-16732</guid>
		<description>Yeah, Bopomofo works extremely well as a syllabary, since it was actually designed for the language.

Mandarin and English just have way too many phonetic differences for any good romanization system to really exist.  Japanese is at least much closer, and you don&#039;t have the problem in Japanese like you do in Chinese where multiple Chinese sounds each sound most similar to the same Engish sound-- Japanese maps one to one pretty well.

The needs of someone who just needs a decent approximation at place names and proper names, are completely different from those of the language learner, who needs to easiy distinguish sounds which are different in Mandarin but sound identical to most English speakers.  Pinyin in way too many ways fails the &quot;is this the spelling which, when pronounced by an English speaker who doesn&#039;t study Chinese, sounds closest to the correct Chinese of any possible spellings?&quot;  Renders it insanely annoying for the occasional users.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, Bopomofo works extremely well as a syllabary, since it was actually designed for the language.</p>
<p>Mandarin and English just have way too many phonetic differences for any good romanization system to really exist.  Japanese is at least much closer, and you don&#8217;t have the problem in Japanese like you do in Chinese where multiple Chinese sounds each sound most similar to the same Engish sound&#8212;Japanese maps one to one pretty well.</p>
<p>The needs of someone who just needs a decent approximation at place names and proper names, are completely different from those of the language learner, who needs to easiy distinguish sounds which are different in Mandarin but sound identical to most English speakers.  Pinyin in way too many ways fails the &#8220;is this the spelling which, when pronounced by an English speaker who doesn&#8217;t study Chinese, sounds closest to the correct Chinese of any possible spellings?&#8221;  Renders it insanely annoying for the occasional users.</p>
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		<title>By: Mutantfrog</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-16704</link>
		<dc:creator>Mutantfrog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2005 19:25:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-16704</guid>
		<description>Pinyin definitely has a number of problems, but the benefits of ANY even half-way decent standardized system absolutely outweigh the drawbacks of the complete lack of standardization that exists in Taiwan.

As an accurate phonetic description of Mandarin I find Pinyin, and every other Romanization system, a bit confusing. I used Pinyin for both semesters of elementary Chinese in the States before I came to Taiwan, but the local Bopomofo system (which I just taught myself recently) gets rid of all of those problems. By not using Roman letters at all, it takes away all the ambiguity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pinyin definitely has a number of problems, but the benefits of <span class="caps">ANY</span> even half-way decent standardized system absolutely outweigh the drawbacks of the complete lack of standardization that exists in Taiwan.</p>
<p>As an accurate phonetic description of Mandarin I find Pinyin, and every other Romanization system, a bit confusing. I used Pinyin for both semesters of elementary Chinese in the States before I came to Taiwan, but the local Bopomofo system (which I just taught myself recently) gets rid of all of those problems. By not using Roman letters at all, it takes away all the ambiguity.</p>
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		<title>By: John Thacker</title>
		<link>http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/comment-page-1/#comment-16697</link>
		<dc:creator>John Thacker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Aug 2005 15:40:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mutantfrog.com/2005/08/10/romanization-in-taiwan/#comment-16697</guid>
		<description>And of course, since no one regularly writes the tone information, it&#039;s still never going to be right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And of course, since no one regularly writes the tone information, it&#8217;s still never going to be right.</p>
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